Drag dilemma

[theDudesmummy]

Just wondered what people's views were on this.

Me: very terfy, vocally uncomfortable about drag queens (woman face) in general and opposed to exposure to children in particular (DQSH etc).

My DS: autistic teenager with intellectual disability, mad about Strictly and now, as we now live in Ireland, the Irish version which is Dancing With The Stars (DWTS). For years it has been our "thing" to watch together, he follows it all closely, knows all about the dancers etc.

This year on DWTS one of the celebs is a very famous and beloved Irish drag queen, "Panti Bliss". It is clear that he is going to do well, he's loved by the public, is a patently nice guy and dances well in fabulous costumes. My DS is a fan and has been voting for him every week. (Obviously "Panti" is referred to as her in the performances, although in the rehearsal room he presents as a man).

I don't know what to think/say. DS is not confused by the cross-dressing aspect, he just takes that in his stride. And when Johannes on Strictly was part of a single sex couple that was great and needed no explanation or comment. We cheered him on because he is a great dancer. But Johannes was being Johannes, even though he also sometimes dressed in fab dresses. He wasn't playing a female role or pretending to be someone else. Or calling himself by what I feel is an inappropriate name for a show watched and loved by children.

I think there are a lot of people who would disagree that Panti is a nice person. He has been vicious to Irish women on Twitter. Just venomous.

However, I don't think that there's any point in being agitated about your don voting for him if he wants to, the man has been a performer on stage for decades, he's bound to have some craft and appeal. But I don't think I could bear to not mention various things I don't like, casually, if they arise.

OK, fair enough, I should have said he comes across as nice, I don't know anything about his history. My DS won't raise anything, there is no chance of him having any thoughts about drag, as far as he is concerned it just is what it is. He wouldn't see it as any different to Johannes sometimes wearing dresses, which is completely unremarkable to him. He likes Panti's dresses and dancing, and thinks he is funny. I just feel really uncomfortable about it and supporting the show in general now.

Drag belongs in nightclubs, performed by and for legal adults.

Strictly is supposed to be a family friendly show. Is DWTS shown in the same sort of teatime time slot? I’ve only ever watched DWTS clips on YouTube and only the dances, never seen the in betweeny talky bits.

I wouldn’t be at all happy if Strictly had a male contestant who used a euphemism for women’s underwear as a stage name.

There is a rich history of same sex dancing (sexual orientation not necessarily relevant) and of gay men in theatre/dance and I am glad that that history is now recognised on the show but it should really be a mostly by-the-by thing, similar to ‘some families have two mummies’ rather than anything thematic to dwell on, purely because it’s supposed to be an all-ages programme.

I think Craig gets away with the odd drag moment on strictly due to his panto dame moonlighting. His strictly performances don’t (iirc) have the adult themes that are present in the actual drag world.

I might be a bit unusual for FWR in that I don’t really a problem with the dressing up as women element - the drag I was introduced to in the 90s seemed more intended to mock the straight men who bullied and derided gay men as not manly enough/ too girly and as critique/commentary on the heterosexual mainstream (that had criminalised gay men) rather than misogynist.

I don’t think all drag is intrinsically misogynistic but some of it absolutely is (eg calling passable-as-female queens ‘fishy’) and a small minority of gay men are massively misogynistic seeing us as little more than cleaners for their houses and hireable wombs for their designer babies.

All that said, I’m a big proponent of free speech and not down with banning stuff so by keeping drag in licensed nightclubs with over 18s clientele it’s fairly easy to avoid and means we don’t have to worry about small kids being prematurely exposed to adult ideas.
Putting it on the telly is fine after the watershed but putting it in libraries for preschoolers is just WTAF?

Johannes is fab.

Also, check out John McClean on YouTube - he’s a Scottish make up artist who is GNC and very feminine but is happy and comfortable with his maleness. I’ll find a link (I haven’t watched John’s content with my ‘is this suitable for teens?’ hat on tho!)

@TheClogLady

There's a tradition of drag on tv too though in the U.K. at least - dame Edna, lily savage ... and of course pantomime dames

I know! I had a great aunt who was obsessed with Danny La Rue and later on, with Julian Clary’s Joan Collins Fanclub.
Not so keen on Dame Ed or Hinge and Bracket, mind you.

The majority of these were broadcast after the watershed (some well after the watershed) and as I said in my previous post, that’s where their equivalents should still be today.

See also: Kenny Everett.
Who would’ve guessed that his bearded drag look would be a future fashion trend?

*Wanders off to look for Kenny Everett clips on YouTube.

I suppose it depends how much understanding your DS has. I would use male pronouns and chat idly about how tricky it must be for men to make themselves up as women but that they are still men and they take off the makeup and are back to themselves. Just keep him grounded in reality while still enjoying his fun. Johannes is a great example, as he loves being flamboyant but is clear that he is a man.

Can't believe they allowed a porn name to be used on mainstream tv. Just no. I don't think I'd be able to watch with DD if they did that in the UK version. Drag maybe though I still find it sexist womanface; drag artist with misogynist porn name no way.

I think I'd try to side track into a different elimination show, is there anything else on where you are? Unfortunately now you're started on the series it might be difficult to sidetrack. If you lose interest will your DS?

I don’t think all drag is intrinsically misogynistic

How can dressing up as a parody of a woman be anything other than misogynistic?

Pantomimes dames too.

Just because there is a history to types of performances, even a very long history, that doesn’t stop it being problematic or outright offensive.

Drag is always creepy. The name Pantie Bliss is totally revolting.

Drag is about mocking women in the nastiest way. There's nothing for your son to understand or appreciate, beyond the fact that there is a history as men dressing as women to demean them.

Single-sex couples are normal and a completely different thing, as I'm sure he knows.

Shelefttheweb · Today 12:30
I don’t think all drag is intrinsically misogynistic

How can dressing up as a parody of a woman be anything other than misogynistic?

Pantomimes dames too.

Just because there is a history to types of performances, even a very long history, that doesn’t stop it being problematic or outright offensive“

Quite. Anyone remember the Black and White Minstrels? Drag is equally wrong.

Thanks for the replies. It's a tricky one. I really can't back out of either Strictly or DWTS, they are enormous long-term interests of his, a huge source of enjoyment, and pretty much the only thing he will watch on TV. There are whole rituals around us watching the shows together, what snacks we eat as we watch, how we decide who to vote for etc etc. I don't always get a huge amount of time with him, and this is something we have always done together, since he was really little. It makes him converse with me, which he would not always otherwise do, and forms a shared interest, which can be difficult with him. Some of his other avid interests are, shall we say, highly esoteric and hard to share (anyone for hours of YouTube footage of, not the actual buses driving through certain areas of north London, but just the display board behind the driver on said buses?).

He isn't really at the intellectual level where I can discuss the history of female oppression etc with him, although the idea of pointing out explicitly and repeatedly how "Panti" is a man and has to make a lot of effort to get dressed as a woman sounds workable. I do already consistently use male pronouns, but it isn't helped by the show (and other media sources) consistently using female ones. If DS was a non-disabled teenager I would have explained I don't agree with what is being done and that I wasn't going to watch it with him, and allow him to make his own decision after a proper discussion. But DS's level of understanding does not allow that, he would just be confused and distressed that I was not watching it with him.

I would have had less of a reaction to the drag per se (while not being particularly happy about it) but the name is truly disturbing and was what made me want to dissuade him from watching this year (although in the end I just couldn't do it, the excitement and and countdown to the new series ever since last year's ended was just too great, I had been hearing for months about who might and might not be in it, who the new presenter and pro dancers were going to be etc etc).

PS for the PP who asked what kind of time it is shown, it is on RTE1 (ie the main flagship state TV channel) at 6.30pm on Sunday nights.

It sounds like you're doing your best. And I wouldn't suggest cutting off anything that has become a bonding time with your son. But just puncturing Panti's glossy and artificial appearance and personality probably would help.

I don't actual have an issue with drag

I would explain it by saying it is like an actor wearing a costume and then taking it off. They are playing a part

Most drag performers are men and identify as men unless they are dressed up as their characters.

It sounds like your DS sees and understands it as a man dressing up in a sparkly dress and heels to dance, the same as a man dressing up in a sparkly trouser suit, or even a woman dressing in a sparkly trouser suit; they are putting on a special costume to perform. But he, (your DS) hasn't picked up on the whole men claiming to be women because they've dressed up in a sparkly dress and heels.

I am not a fan of drag because it has become offensive womanface, but I suppose you could say the actual clothes are not offensive, it is what the person wearing them does and says when they are wearing them that can be offensive.

I have no help for you @theDudesmummy but I think it’s revolting that RTE are pushing this person on a prime tv slot.

@VaddaABeetch I quite agree. DWTS is a direct copy of Strictly (only with visibly less money thrown at it) and it feels like they have tried to copy the successful (and welcome) introduction of same-sex couples on Strictly, without understanding that this is a totally different dimension.

Just talk about costume. When someone dresses up they "become" a character. In some ways (and, yes, I hate it too) it is like dressing up as a devil, an astronaut or a cat.

Keep talking about costume and pretending.

Drag for adults…yeah ok. It’s mindless fun and a bit of a piss up night

drag for children. Hell no

How can you say that when according to Panti's own twitter bio, Panti is a national treasure!

Like seriously, the guy has self-appointed himself a national treasure. I'm "shocked" he's even willing to go on RTE after he was so disgusted with them for allowing Liveline to discuss erasure of the word 'women' on smear test letters, last year

@theDudesmummy i believe RTE know exactly what they’re doing. They’re trying to normalise this. It’s all wonderful if you have any misgivings you’re a narrow minded bigot.

Ive met this person, he’s very unpleasant to women.

It's really a pity this has happened, as these dancing shows have been such a source of happiness to me and my DS over many years, and now because of this I am basically a participant on the wrong side of a culture war...which does not sit well with me.

I will continue to watch (DS is gearing up for tonight's episode as we speak) and I will talk about it being a costume etc, but that does not erase the fact there were it not for DS I would have nothing to do with it and would be writing "Disgusted of Galway" letters to RTE...

No it's really not the same.

were it not for DS I would have nothing to do with it and would be writing "Disgusted of Galway" letters to RTE...

You can still write “Disgusted of Galway” letters to RTE!