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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Drag dilemma

62 replies

theDudesmummy · 29/01/2023 09:08

Just wondered what people's views were on this.

Me: very terfy, vocally uncomfortable about drag queens (woman face) in general and opposed to exposure to children in particular (DQSH etc).

My DS: autistic teenager with intellectual disability, mad about Strictly and now, as we now live in Ireland, the Irish version which is Dancing With The Stars (DWTS). For years it has been our "thing" to watch together, he follows it all closely, knows all about the dancers etc.

This year on DWTS one of the celebs is a very famous and beloved Irish drag queen, "Panti Bliss". It is clear that he is going to do well, he's loved by the public, is a patently nice guy and dances well in fabulous costumes. My DS is a fan and has been voting for him every week. (Obviously "Panti" is referred to as her in the performances, although in the rehearsal room he presents as a man).

I don't know what to think/say. DS is not confused by the cross-dressing aspect, he just takes that in his stride. And when Johannes on Strictly was part of a single sex couple that was great and needed no explanation or comment. We cheered him on because he is a great dancer. But Johannes was being Johannes, even though he also sometimes dressed in fab dresses. He wasn't playing a female role or pretending to be someone else. Or calling himself by what I feel is an inappropriate name for a show watched and loved by children.

OP posts:
Original poster
theDudesmummy · 29/01/2023 18:01

I think I shall...

OP posts:
MrsSkylerWhite · 31/01/2023 09:30

Sux2buthen · 29/01/2023 17:30
MrsSkylerWhite · 29/01/2023 12:45
Shelefttheweb · Today 12:30
I don’t think all drag is intrinsically misogynistic

How can dressing up as a parody of a woman be anything other than misogynistic?

Pantomimes dames too.

Just because there is a history to types of performances, even a very long history, that doesn’t stop it being problematic or outright offensive“

Quite. Anyone remember the Black and White Minstrels? Drag is equally wrong.

No it's really not the same.“

it is in the context of history and tradition: ie just because something is traditional, doesn’t mean it’s right or justified to carry it on.

KiwiMum2023 · 31/01/2023 10:03

Panti Bliss - a national treasure my eye! Such an unpleasant misogynistic individual.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 31/01/2023 10:32

@forgotmyusername1 "I would explain it by saying it is like an actor wearing a costume and then taking it off. They are playing a part"

You could also add that just because someone is on tv doesn't mean that they're really as nice as they seem - but don't need to overplay it I don't think just a sniffy 'he's not my favourite, I want x to win, because...well whatever works for you but maybe chose someone who cares about others and seems genuine )

I don't think it's the first sexist / abusive man they've had on and won't be the last.

Original poster
theDudesmummy · 31/01/2023 15:10

Thanks for the contributions. I had a discussion with DS on Sunday about how we know "Panti" is really Rory and is playing a part, like when DS gets into fancy dress. That created no problems, he was like "duh!". I didn't tell him not to vote for Panti, but in fact he chose other people this week. (His voting is based much more on people's chat than their dancing). Talking about how not everyone is as nice as they seem on TV also sounds like a good lesson for next Sunday's session!

I am still angry though that this person is in this role. They even had him dancing to "Natural Woman" a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was a real overt slap in the face for women. Ugh.

OP posts:
MeinKraft · 31/01/2023 15:22

There's a drag queen on dancing on ice UK at the minute too, The Vivienne. As long as it's all appropriate for children I don't mind really. The name Panti Bliss would annoy me a bit.

MadamAndTheAnts · 31/01/2023 16:18

theDudesmummy · 29/01/2023 13:39

Thanks for the replies. It's a tricky one. I really can't back out of either Strictly or DWTS, they are enormous long-term interests of his, a huge source of enjoyment, and pretty much the only thing he will watch on TV. There are whole rituals around us watching the shows together, what snacks we eat as we watch, how we decide who to vote for etc etc. I don't always get a huge amount of time with him, and this is something we have always done together, since he was really little. It makes him converse with me, which he would not always otherwise do, and forms a shared interest, which can be difficult with him. Some of his other avid interests are, shall we say, highly esoteric and hard to share (anyone for hours of YouTube footage of, not the actual buses driving through certain areas of north London, but just the display board behind the driver on said buses?).

He isn't really at the intellectual level where I can discuss the history of female oppression etc with him, although the idea of pointing out explicitly and repeatedly how "Panti" is a man and has to make a lot of effort to get dressed as a woman sounds workable. I do already consistently use male pronouns, but it isn't helped by the show (and other media sources) consistently using female ones. If DS was a non-disabled teenager I would have explained I don't agree with what is being done and that I wasn't going to watch it with him, and allow him to make his own decision after a proper discussion. But DS's level of understanding does not allow that, he would just be confused and distressed that I was not watching it with him.

I would have had less of a reaction to the drag per se (while not being particularly happy about it) but the name is truly disturbing and was what made me want to dissuade him from watching this year (although in the end I just couldn't do it, the excitement and and countdown to the new series ever since last year's ended was just too great, I had been hearing for months about who might and might not be in it, who the new presenter and pro dancers were going to be etc etc).

It sounds like watching the show is important to your relationship with your DS.

He isn’t troubled by drag or pronouns.

So, I would suggest simply forgetting about any gender political concerns you have and just enjoy the show.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 01/02/2023 07:53

It's a relief to read people who share my feeling that R O'N might not be as universally pleasant a person as the RTÉ message insists.

Musomama1 · 01/02/2023 09:58

Panti Bliss is a bit much for a name on family TV. Dame Edna and Lily Savage didn't have smutty names.

It's kind of similar to Flo Job, but not as bad as Krystal Lubrikunt.

Well, drag queens are referred to as she because it's the character that is being addressed. I think it's when it's small children that it gets confusing to them. And also primetime is still not the same as CBeebies or dedicated children's viewing.

I think in this situation the name bothers me more than anything else here.

Original poster
theDudesmummy · 01/02/2023 11:32

On the issue of it being the "character" who is appearing and dancing (and being addressed) on the show, rather than Rory: This got me thinking, why do we not then see any other fictional characters appearing on the dancing shows? Actors are on all the time but always as the actor, never as the character. Why don't we see the Earl of Grantham strutting his stuff? Or all the soaps characters whose actors appear on Strictly all the time? If the competition permits fictional characters to enter, why is "Panti" the only one ever?

OP posts:
Musomama1 · 01/02/2023 14:49

Yeah it's unusual. But there are a few character comics I can think of like Keith Lemon who would be performing in character and it would make sense.

VaddaABeetch · 01/02/2023 14:52

Panti appears because Panti ‘stunning & brave’. It’s just another example of misogyny.

MadamAndTheAnts · 01/02/2023 16:07

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 01/02/2023 07:53

It's a relief to read people who share my feeling that R O'N might not be as universally pleasant a person as the RTÉ message insists.

So it's a "relief" to you that other people share your unevidenced "feeling" about someone supposedly being unpleasant. What a way to live and judge people.

MadamAndTheAnts · 01/02/2023 16:07

VaddaABeetch · 01/02/2023 14:52

Panti appears because Panti ‘stunning & brave’. It’s just another example of misogyny.

Boring! It's just entertainment.

StephanieSuperpowers · 01/02/2023 16:09

MadamAndTheAnts · 01/02/2023 16:07

So it's a "relief" to you that other people share your unevidenced "feeling" about someone supposedly being unpleasant. What a way to live and judge people.

Show quote history

Well I've seen him being extremely unpleasant to women on Twitter. Women only, naturally.

MadamAndTheAnts · 01/02/2023 16:11

StephanieSuperpowers · 01/02/2023 16:09

Well I've seen him being extremely unpleasant to women on Twitter. Women only, naturally.

Show quote history

What was this in response to? Or did he just spout unpleasantries unprovoked?

StephanieSuperpowers · 01/02/2023 16:12

Well, the Irish accounts I follow are Irish feminist women, which is something he finds quite provoking.

MadamAndTheAnts · 01/02/2023 16:17

StephanieSuperpowers · 01/02/2023 16:12

Well, the Irish accounts I follow are Irish feminist women, which is something he finds quite provoking.

Still none the clearer about whether his comments were justified or not.

Personally I have no issue with drag, but I understand there is a certain kind of feminist who takes issue with it. I simply shrug.

MilkyWaytoday · 01/02/2023 16:20

Vile. Saw a drag queen called “Cheryl hole” on tv the other morning. because women are just holes eh? Fucking hilarious. And I bet Cheryl Cole (big sure that’s her name now)has to think it’s all jolly great fun or she will get insulted 🙄🙄

StephanieSuperpowers · 01/02/2023 16:21

Well, I suppose justification is a subjective thing. Presumably he thinks he is justified. I didn't comment on that, even though I personally don't agree with him. I said he was unpleasant, which he definitely was.

VaddaABeetch · 01/02/2023 16:23

Rory O’Neill is a very unpleasant man. He has been very unpleasant to me & many women. He’s allowed do this as he’s ‘stunning & brave’.

VaddaABeetch · 01/02/2023 16:23

Being rude, sneezy , misogynistic & sexiest is never justified.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 01/02/2023 17:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 01/02/2023 17:14

MadamandtheAnts my feeling wasn't unevidenced. This is a man who has made his living lampooning womanhood and using a degrading stage name not just on stage in the wider world. It speaks to an attitude toward women.

Reposted with a name correction - the creepy bloke was M C not the brave and harmless B D.

In any case, with age I have some to believe in respecting my instinctive reactions. I used to struggle against judging people on the basis of 'bad vibes', but over the decades it has interested me to find my instinctive 'ugh' to entertainers (Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris) or people encountered through school (Michael Cleary and Catherine Scully later Nevin both came to talk to us and both made the hairs on my arms stand up) was later vindicated. Michael Cleary was the darling of the Irish media in very much the same way R O'N is now, for similar identity driven reasons. Different identity, same fawning admiration.

MadamAndTheAnts · 01/02/2023 18:15

VaddaABeetch · 01/02/2023 16:23

Rory O’Neill is a very unpleasant man. He has been very unpleasant to me & many women. He’s allowed do this as he’s ‘stunning & brave’.

What did he say and what was it in response to?

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