Scottish Trans rapist - discussion on R4 today. Staggering.

[Pocketfullofdogtreats]

I know there's another thread on this subject but I just wanted to make you aware of this discussion on the World At One this lunchtime, so you can listen to the later version at 6pm if you missed it.

The presenter (Sarah Montague) asked an ex-prison governor to fill in a bit of info. Why were the Scottish Govt involved in this case? The ex-PG said the prisoner had been held 'segregated' in a women's prison for the allowed length of time while they decided where to place 'her', but now presumably the governor wanted to extend that, and as the prisoner has human rights this would need govt. permission. She (the ex-PG) said that in her opinion, regardless of 'her' crime, if the prisoner was assessed as presenting no current threat to women, then she should be held in a women's prison.

Yep. That's right. I nearly fell off my bloody chair. If this person who has recently been found guilty of raping two women is not currently a threat to women, they should be able to mix freely with women prisoners.

The ex-PG then, confusingly, said that if the prisoner had been held in a men's prison in the first place, 'all this' would've been avoided. She also commented that she'd worked with many Trans prisoners, all of them M to F, and none of them had had surgery, and there had been some 'incidents' including flashing, and worse. Also, that although Sturgeon confirmed that the prisoner would not be held in Colston Vale, this didn't rule our her being sent to another women's prison.

I don't normally post on these boards. Sorry if anyone thinks I shouldn't have made a new thread. But I am so bloody angry at the hypocrisy here that I had to.

No, I think the forever prison governor was making the point that in terms of the legal basis for segregation the prison would not have been able to insist this particular prisoner was kept segregated.

She absolutely was not saying he was no threat to the woman. I know this because she is on the record for opposing transgender women in the female estate.

Sorry, former not forever!

I think you will find that Rhona Hotchkiss has been very upfront and vocal about removing any male from women's prisons.

I listened to the piece. Perhaps you have not quite understood what she said?

She said that prison could only hold that male in segregation for a set period of time due to Human Rights laws. That to extend it needs Scottish Government authority but eventually that male would be back in the general prison population.

She also said that unless that male was an active and current threat that there was no way to keep them segregated.

And she did point out that she has not yet come across any male prisoner who has claimed that they should be in a female prison who had surgery. It is relevant due to the continued assertion from so many politicians and invested spokespeople that those males with a GRC are surgical etc.

And obviously that will become an issue in the future with self-ID and the UK government's new document about to be released.

Agree with @TheSingingBean - I heard the prison governor saying that the rules on segregation were that if there's no immediate threat to the other prisoners (eg the individual was not actively making threats / doing violence etc) then the law does not allow segregation.
I think she was very clear that the general level of threat from the prisoner to the others was not allowed to be part of the consideration around segregation.

I also thought she laid out the rules very well and shone a light on the ridiculous and horrifying situation, whilst remaining factual. She just put it out there for people to process themselves .

Agree there is hypocrisy in the system but I think the ex-governor was exposing it not agreeing with it.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11678509/Ex-governor-Scottish-womens-prison-quit-Isla-Bryson.html

This is Rhona.

Rhona rocks! And has given misogynists one of the best 'burns' on twitter that I have seen.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1311369010995441665?s=20&t=8vQtl2lAX-eeA240LS9OeA

She describes her work in prisons from approx 2 minutes 40 sec in

Love it Helleofabore!

Just wish she'd ended with "and you?".

OK, thanks peeps.

Oooh I like Rhona 😁

But I don't know, I am starting to feel like even things like this case won't be enough to make the scales drop from some people's eyes. It will just be "oh but they are such in a tiny minority", "biological women can assault other women and they are in women's prisons so what's the difference" and other such feeble excuses as to why the odd wrong'un with a penis is acceptable in the fight for the greater good 🙄

Yes, pickle I aim to be more like Rhona and not like Andrew James Carter. ....

As I said, Rhona ROCKS!

The response from the Scottish Prison Service and from NS are not legally coherent. (Shocking, I know.) There has been a ruling from a Scottish judge that a GRC means that a TW is a W. So if TWAW, and some are deemed too risky to be in the female estate - then we need to know which women might be held in the male estate and under what circumstances. If there is no difference between women and transwomen, legally, then any woman deemed too risky for the female estate would qualify for removal to the male estate.

We should now be told for which crimes women might be housed in the male estate.

Spare - rape?!

I hope so - though this hasn't been the policy until now.

The problem is that if there is no distinction between a TW and a woman, and a TW is moved to the male estate - that means any woman could be moved. For reasons undefined.

I wonder if Evan (TWAW) Davis will discuss rapists in women's prisons fairly tonight, on R4 PM. Or will l yell at the radio. Again.

So far he is leading a discussion about men wearing shorts. Wearing shorts as identity. I kid you not.

Rhona Hotchkiss on World at One? You've made my day!

(Grabs headset and BBC Sounds.)

The cognitive dissonence over this is making my head hurt. The PG is right in that if TWAW then this person needs to be housed in the women's prison. Problem is it's shinning a light on the fact that TWAW is a mantra that isn't truely believed. It's a lie we're all supposed to pretend we don't see.

What we need defined by the Scottish Government is the ‘critical point’ when a TW + GRC + crime reverts to being treated as M. Should there be a list of different crimes or is it a sliding scale? Perhaps it would be a good idea to live in your preferred gender for a couple of years and get a medical professional to concur, just to safeguard against those abuses. Perhaps these ideas could be thought through with experts from all different fields before laws were changed? Oh wait….

Thanks for posting about this, @Pocketfullofdogtreats, as I haven't heard the radio today since I caught a minute or two of Nick Robinson and Yvette Cooper (I think that's who it was) late on in the Today programme. YC was pretty clear about this, but I don't think she or Labour have rowed back on the general principle that TWAW etc, so still work to be done.

I heard her and she was magnificent! She did refer to the rapist as “she” but presumably that was because she’s worried about getting a bollocking from the BBC plus others.

She was making the point that by law this rapist could not be kept in isolation unless they attacked another women whilst in prison.

She also stated that she had seen many TIMs exposing their genitals, whilst in women's prisons and non of them had had any surgery. Rhonda agreed that they should all be in men’s prisons.

Listening to Evan still. Waiting for some discussion of the transwoman rapist in a woman's prison. Moved on from men's shorts to Isreal/Palestine (important). Then the shock! horror! of green claims on household products. Now he is doing chatGPT. Exams, so on.

No Nicola Sturgeon U turn yet.

Oh, now he asks if instagram is ruining the restaurant trade.

Fucking hell. This is important! And the BBC seems to be sidestepping it on evening news program, gaaaakkkkk

I just came looking for a thread because of Rhonda! She made fantastic points very coherently.
I get that you got confused as did Sarah Montague so it sort of got spelled out twice that segregating a trans woman in a female prison wasn’t an option as it goes against prisoners human rights to be isolated.

Also that the majority are intact. Also that a separate trans prison is the only fair solution.

Evan Davis has 4 minutes left on R4 to talk about the lead BBC story. He's on restaurants and Instagrammable dishes now. Place your bets...

Aargh. You are me both Dungs. This item is going on and on....

Well l am relieved to know that Evan's life is cushioned from the reality of rapists in women's prisons. None of his researchers could have told him, or surely he would have covered it, right? Right?