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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What are UK schools teaching?

97 replies

namechange10022002 · 23/01/2023 16:42

Just curious to hear what, if anything, your children have been taught about the trans issue? (At either primary or secondary school).

My own kids will be starting to primary school soon and I just want to get an idea of how much exposure to this topic they might receive.

OP posts:
Elsanore · 23/01/2023 21:24

There was a thread on here the other day about No Outsiders, a bought in PHSCE scheme that is in use in primaries and wrongly states "gender" instead of sex as a protected characteristic under the equalities act.

My DP had mentioned his school uses No Outsiders so after I told him about them attempting to delete 'sex' he raised it with the headteacher. She said she'd already had complaints about that and at their school they have got rid of gender and corrected it back to sex! yay! And also explained to the kids why.

CriticalCondition · 23/01/2023 22:06

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/01/2023 21:15

Yes - and no parent is a bigot for checking out the qualifications, expertise & online presence of anyone who sets themselves up to talk to children. it's basic safeguarding.

Yes, it is a shame it was deleted. It seemed from that thread that not all teachers can be relied on to ask those questions. Particularly if they themselves are starting from the position that there are six biological sexes.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/01/2023 22:28

CriticalCondition · Today 19:54
There is currently some interesting discussion on this thread about what is being taught in schools.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4724144-jude-guaitamacchi-coming-into-schools

It has been deleted together with all the important linked information on it.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/01/2023 22:33

reallyneedmoresleep · Today 19:02

This contradicts what your son believes.

It’s Hard Work Being a Boy (and, It Turns Out, a Girl) | Biomedical Odyssey

biomedicalodyssey.blogs.hopkinsmedicine.org/2017/09/its-hard-work-being-a-boy-and-it-turns-out-a-girl/

This is a brilliant explanation of male and female
m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dd8Ow8bA-Q

He is 16. High time he knew the truth!

ScrollingLeaves · 23/01/2023 22:40

secretlyscientific · Today 17:48

InsertSomethingMotivationalHere · Today 21:20

Thank you, and teachers like you.
👏💐🌸

Tinysoxxx · 23/01/2023 22:41

secretlyscientific · 23/01/2023 17:48

well, I am a biology teacher in a secondary school, teaching sex, puberty and reproduction at KS3, and hormones of the menstrual cycle at KS4.

I teach there are two sexes, male and female.

The trans question always comes up. I tell my classes that a man can be a transwoman. But they cant be a biological woman. I tell them to be kind and fair to everyone. I stamp down hard on any homophobic or transphobic use of language.

But when they come in with their stories of a man who has given birth, or similar, etc, I just say no, a transman has given birth, not a biological man, and if I am further questioned, I just explain that anyone can be any gender they choose, and no clothing or style of behaviour is entirely make, or entirely female, but you are the sex you are born in, and that cant change. When asked about male brains in female bodies, etc, I just say there is no such thing as a male brain.

I find the brain thing the most infuriating - we teach our girls that their brains are just as scientific, and mathematical as boys brains, there is no difference, beyond societal conditioning, then some idiot in the PSHE department goes and muddies the water, by claiming, totally unscientifically, that there is some sort of vague, mythological difference, that no one can name, measure or see on a scan.

That is what I teach. ANd yes, I have been prepared to lose my career over it. I equate being expected to teach that you can change sex as the equivalent of the teachers being told to teach Nazi race science; Lies, being told for political reasons.

However, being prepared to lay down my career has never been called on, as no teacher in any of the science departments I have ever taught in has ever contradicted me.

Some of the woke deputy heads in languages though....

Same here, when I taught science. Just to be absolutely sure about the brain thing, I asked a neurosurgeon and he confirmed there is no difference.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/01/2023 22:45

CriticalCondition · Today 22:06

^MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 21:15
Yes - and no parent is a bigot for checking out the qualifications, expertise & online presence of anyone who sets themselves up to talk to children. it's basic safeguarding^.

Yes, it is a shame it was deleted. It seemed from that thread that not all teachers can be relied on to ask those questions. Particularly if they themselves are starting from the position that there are six biological sexes.

I wonder if that thread could be reinstated just without parts they objected to?

Or failing that, can anyone remember and re-find some of the important links posted?

tinkerella1 · 23/01/2023 22:50

I think it’s perfectly legitimate to look at the social media presence of speakers in schools. And it’s not just what they post but who they follow. We know that curious kids will interact with a speakers content and from that the algorithm will suggest who they follow and posts they might like. Schools and speaker agencies don’t look at this an are exposing children to a safeguarding risk. There has to be a better system of scrutinising a school speaker. I bet someone is cleaning up who they follow right now.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/01/2023 22:50

The Tate has produced a resource especially for schools to use which full of gender identity ideology, as well as laying on Drag Queen Story Time with Aida H Dee for half term. Here is a petition against
this.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4719010-stop-the-tate-pushing-gender-ideology-on-children

tinkerella1 · 23/01/2023 23:01

I thinks it’s dangerous that a speaker can use social media post to infer parents are a danger by being “bullies” simply for not accepting gender ideology. Creating an irrational fear that children should have of their parents is incredibly damaging to relationships. It doesn’t encourage dialogue, it creates a rift in the relationship and for an adolescent that can be psychologically damaging. And because the speaker has no training they don’t have any concept of the damage they are doing. And yet they get booked to talk in schools. This kind of thing has to stop.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/01/2023 23:06

Elsanore · Today 21:24
There was a thread on here the other day about No Outsiders, a bought in PHSCE scheme that is in use in primaries and wrongly states "gender" instead of sex as a protected characteristic under the equalities act.

My DP had mentioned his school uses No Outsiders so after I told him about them attempting to delete 'sex' he raised it with the headteacher. She said she'd already had complaints about that and at their school they have got rid of gender and corrected it back to sex! yay! And also explained to the kids why.

Was it the thread with this title,@Elsanore

Please help! Gender not sex on a school 'protected characteristics' poster, just spoken to the Head!

CriticalCondition · 23/01/2023 23:20

can anyone remember and re-find some of the important links posted?

Someone posted a great link to a leaflet produced by DSD Families(?). It was really clear and helpful in explaining what DSDs are, why the term 'intersex' should be avoided and the approach schools should take. I'll see if I can find it or if the poster who had it reads this and could pop it on here that would be brilliant!

reallyneedmoresleep · 23/01/2023 23:36

Thank you!

rabbitwoman · 24/01/2023 09:18

bigbillybobhowler · 23/01/2023 18:29

Currently suspended from my school job for saying biology ie sex is real 🤷🏻‍♀️ nothing offensive, just that. Unfortunately said it in-front of a non binary trans man.

Whoa!!

That's pretty tough.

I was reported to my school for anti trans tweets and had to have a meeting with a deputy head and HR.

I did point out that all my tweets were evidence based, in alignment with the law and the government position and that it was a protected belief since the forstater ET, further tested by the Alison Bailey ET.

I also pointed out that the person who reported me might not be aware of the legal position as it has changed so much since the summer, but as they are reporting me for a perfectly legal and widely held belief that might constitute harassment. Make a counter grievance!

It also really helped that we had just been emailed round new transgender schools guidance, that had been updated in September with reference to transgender trend and sex matters. I have no idea how widespread this guidance is, but if you PM me I will email you a PDF.

IcakedefargeIam · 24/01/2023 10:04

Article about this in the telegraph (you must get a ration of free articles each month because I'm not a subscriber). The comments by GF Mad in the, um, comments are cracking, a call to arms.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/23/schools-block-parents-seeing-harmful-sex-education-materials/

The letter the DfE was supposed to be sending to schools hasn't been.

IamAporcupine · 24/01/2023 10:52

@secretlyscientific, @InsertSomethingMotivationalHere, @Tinysoxxx
Thank you Flowers

My DS is in Y6 and his middle school recently sent a PSHE survey, asking amongst other things, if we thought all children should be taught 'diversity, such as homosexuality and gender issues'. Agree/disagree, but at least there was a followed up question to ellaborate, which I did. I might be being too optimistic here but I thought it was good that they at least asked!

On the other hand, I learnt yesterday that there is a now a 'LGBTQ+ ally' club.

We are lucky that our DS is very rational and loves science and facts. For personal reasons, he is very aware of sex stereotypes, which I think really helps. He rolls his eyes at the 'there are 72 genders' that some of the (almost exclusively) girls spout.
He's already been called homophobic by one of them for saying there are two sexes.

PaterPower · 24/01/2023 11:07

@rabbitwoman - what was the result of your counter grievance? Or is it all still ongoing?

For those teachers on the thread saying they don’t (or their school doesn’t) teach the whole pink brain / genderbread BS, are you aware of any schools local to you that do?

Or are their colleagues in your own school who keep trying to push it?

Slightly off the point, I was watching a news item about a week ago where they were interviewing a primary head, her deputy and several of the teaching staff. The piece wasn’t about inclusivity, (ironically it was about a lack of money), but it was very eye catching to see that every single one of them was wearing an LGBTQ+ lanyard. A lanyard which they’d obviously spent money on having personalised with the school’s name printed on top.

I’ve been accused of cynicism many times, but I don’t think I’d be too far off the mark in looking at that and concluding that their library is full of the kind of materials Mermaids pushes.

SinnerBoy · 24/01/2023 11:07

My daughter is Year 5 and has a pixie cut. This morning, she asked me to take he to the hairdresser, so she can have it shaved at the back. I said no, the uniform and hair rules say the girls can't have shaved heads (boys are allowed a Number 4).

She told me that one Year 7 girl has hers shaved at the back, "because she's a boy." I asked if the school had told her that and she said no, but pronouns. School hasn't taught them to use pronouns, but that it's polite to do so. I'm really not sure what she meant.

I've looked on the school website, but can't find anything about gender woo.

rabbitwoman · 24/01/2023 11:18

@PaterPower

Oh, although I suggest that the PP could raise a counter grievance, I didn't have to. Turns out the complaint against me was from an anonymous email account that was swiftly deleted.

I pointed out that this was probably an indication that I was being targeted for my beliefs which is a pretty serious matter.

Also, I was able to point out that although all the views I expressed were in line with our school guidance, many teachers weren't, which could be evidenced by the language they were using and posters they were displaying in their classrooms. The deputy head who was investigating asked me for a list of issues - I sent him a seven page document!! I told him that I would never have raised my concerns with him myself, but as it had been raised for me so to speak, and as we had been given very clear guidance on the teaching of trans issues and support of ALL children in our school, he was very keen to hear my feedback.

Again, if anyone would like to see the guidance from my LA, dm me 😉

FanFckingTastic · 24/01/2023 11:23

I agree that it's not so much what is being taught but the whole culture at school. My son's all boys school announced a little while ago that they could no longer refer to the cohort as 'boys' and that other terms were also going to be phased out (lads, gents, blokes etc) Apparently this was because calling them boys could be offensive to the children at the all-boys school that were not in fact boys...

My son, who's usually a quiet non-confrontational kind of kid was really concerned by this and asked to see the HoY. He asked her what he was if he was not a boy. He also asked what he should call out to the rugby team when they were playing 'come on students, we can win this!' maybe? Finally he asked if this meant that his sister, who was also not a boy, could come and join the school. All very valid questions that for some reason could not be answered. I'm sure that he was not the only one gently questioning the rationale and reality behind these changes and after a few weeks the school rolled back and it was ok to be a boy again.

Grammarnut · 24/01/2023 11:23

reallyneedmoresleep · 23/01/2023 19:02

My 16 year old has come home from school insisting that men have vaginas, just that during foetal development, a penis grows over the top of it for children who are then “assigned as male” once they are born. Apparently, a sex change operation is then easy because it’s simply removing the penis.
He's quite adamant that a biology teacher has told him this and that I am transphobic for questioning this world view and I need to get my facts straight.
He has surely misunderstood something but I daren’t Google what he’s saying because that’s going to lead me down some pretty horrific rabbit holes.

Sounds like he has been taught about the precursors of male and female gonads existing in the foetus and that in the absence of a Y chromosome, a foetus will be female, and has misinterpreted this (or been told 'all foetus start out as female', which is not true). Also possible is that DSDs have been discussed along with the 'sex spectrum'. Not sure how you disabuse him of this idea but possibly some illustrations of internal male and female anatomy might help - it is utterly clear from such diagrams that men have not got a vagina under their penis. Also an explanation of how sex is determined at conception, perhaps?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/01/2023 11:27

@IamAporcupine
If I discovered that there was an LGBTQ+ ally group in my child's school I'd ask some very pointed questions. Parents should NOT be accepting these groups in schools, certainly not in primary schools but even in secondary, this is way outside a school's remit.
Questions worth asking :
What is the relevant pastoral / learning data from the school that informs setting up this group?
What is the purpose of these meetings?
What age groups attend, any 4 - 11 year olds?
Is parental consent sought before attendance?
How is the content of these meetings recorded and evaluated?
What management oversight / accountability is there for the group?
How do the adults ensure that discussions are age appropriate about sexual identity, gender identity & sexual relationships?
Are the discussions planned, is there an agreed curriculum?
What safeguarding measures are in place?
The SRE guidelines have clear guidance about age appropriateness and specific advice about not telling children they might be born in the wrong body? How does this group operate within these guidelines?
What days are the heterosexual allyship, the disability allyship, the BAME allyship and the (choose specific religion) allyship meetings held?
How are the school protecting the adults involved from allegations of grooming / sexual coercion when holding open ended discussions about sex / sexual identity and gender identity with such young children?

Parents really have to speak out and challenge this stuff.

tinkerella1 · 24/01/2023 11:29

I've just realised I had the deleted thread still open so I've copied a link below.
Its a comment from another on how DSD should be taught in school. It's commonly confused with LGBQT+++

"This is not a guide about LGBT+ issues, as Differences of Sex Development/Intersex Variations are not a form of sexuality or gender identity; they are about physical differences in a person’s reproductive development and sometimes genital development."

Comment and link below is from another poster :

Please share this with the school and ask them why they are allowing intersexphobic information to be presented in their schools

dsdfamilies.org/application/files/9116/3519/2768/July_2021_schools.pdf

Grammarnut · 24/01/2023 11:29

Thesonglastslonger · 23/01/2023 19:25

Does piss me off how the trans activists never mention the clitoris. To a lot of women the clitoris is way more important and certainly more fun than the vagina.

Funny that they don't mention the clitoris much. Insidious (and vile) is the term 'front hole' for vagina, too, which rather suggests (along with ignoring the clitoris) that trans activists haven't a clue about biology - so where do they think urine exits a woman's body?

Grammarnut · 24/01/2023 11:30

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4724144-jude-guaitamacchi-coming-into-schools thread has been deleted. Anyone know why?

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