Why is there 'no LGB without the T'?

[Righthandcider]

Something’s been going around my head in circles.

I’ve seen the mantra ‘No LGB without the T’ repeated in several places.

But exactly why have so many LGB organisations aligned themselves with trans hook, line and sinker? I mean one might argue that well-meaning LGB groups have been sucked in by TRAs who are blatantly piggy backing, borrowing the legacy of the gay liberation movement to shut down any debate by making it seem backwards and ‘phobic’ to question them in any way. But LGB groups themselves obviously don’t see the relationship this way. Most of them don’t seem to think they’re being used.

So what is it that they think they have in common with trans activists? Isn’t there a bloody huge elephant in the room? LGB rights are about ensuring nobody is treated differently because of their sexuality. That's literally what unites lesbian, gay and bi people.

I thought the party line for trans rights is that being trans is separate from and independent of a person’s sexuality. It’s simply about whether they feel they are male, female, neither or both.

So where’s the overlap? Why are LGB groups giving their energy to fighting for the ‘T’, to the point of saying there’s ‘no LGB without it’, if it’s not about sexuality?

Is it because they actually feel deep down that it IS about sexuality?

That it’s partly about same sex attraction, in that a lot of gay people still feel the pressure of homophobia and would rather be transed out of it?

That it’s partly about autogynaephilia, in that many cross dressers can now hold their heads high as stunning and brave better versions of 'cis' women, while enjoying the fulfilment of their ultimate sexual fantasy?

If it’s not either of those things, then where exactly is the natural connection between LBG and T? The only explanation I’ve seen anywhere is that ‘they are another marginalised group’. But there are many other marginalised groups, so why join with this one in particular?

I’m interested to hear people’s views.

It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

At that time there was still a huge stigma to being gay - section 28 was in place etc. And so a lot of gay people had struggled with feeling different/wrong, coming out etc. Many had to come to terms with not being able to wish themselves straight.
The transgender narrative around "being born in the wrong body" has parallels I think and would resonate with gay people who struggled.

Because of that shared experience, I guess many gay people will support trans people.

I think we forget now that it's fairly recent for homosexuality to be accepted and even celebrated. There is still homophobia but in general in the UK we are now very accepting. But that's a change that's happened in most adults lifetimes.

Personally, and on the basis of the views of most other LGB people I know, our support of trans inclusion stems from a sense that a lot (though not all) of the objections to trans people are similar to the objections that were being raised to LGB people until quite recently. That trans women/gay people are perverts or fetishists, predatory, and a threat to children. That telling children about LGB/trans people will encourage them to do things they might regret later, or lead them into a life which is likely to be unfulfilled and lonely, and in which they won’t be able to have children with their partner in the normal way. That we are seeking to redefine things against the way they have been commonly understood for centuries (“marriage”, “woman”).

Just let people be, FFS. The threat to women’s rights does not, repeat does not come from genuine Ts. It comes from men. It’s more likely to be your husband, your father, your brother that’s a danger to you or other women, by an absolute country mile, but that’s too awkward for anyone to admit.

This shows a lack of understanding of the whole issue.

That we are seeking to redefine things against the way they have been commonly understood for centuries (“marriage”, “woman”).

The definition of woman is important to all women, not just lesbian and bisexual ones. It's not up to you to "redefine it", and you don't have any more right to do so than anyone else.

It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

Well that’s an outright lie.

It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

It wasn't in my experience of being young/going to uni in the mid to late 90s. Not in the mainstream. It was very much LGB. I'd say more like 20. And remember that Stonewall didn't start promoting trans rights in this country until 2015.

Just let people be, FFS. The threat to women’s rights does not, repeat does not come from genuine Ts. It comes from men

What is a 'genuine T'?

And why are they not men?

That post shows you have no idea what people on MN believe.
Do you really think that no one here has ever suggested 3rd spaces? Really? That you're a genius that's just come up with it?

They've been suggested and shut down by the trans lot as they don't just want safety, they want to be treated as the opposite sex in EVERY situation. No separate prisons, or anything else is enough, only complete integration.

Don't you get it yet? This is a giant loophole that allows abusive men to abuse women and people like you handwave it through to be kind while calling others bigots.

How about you go on Twitter or Reddit trans subs and suggest 3rd spaces? Report back with your experience.

I’m pretty old and I’m sure there are many here older and more experienced than me.

When I was at university there was LGB, towards the end of my degree the T was added. I assume to include “old school transsexuals” (the op kind going quietly about life).

With modern explosion it’s “anyone who wants to be a bit special” but it’s fucking ludicrous.

Never mind the wave of autogynephilia and autistic teens - on which planet does a lesbian want to be grouped with a “minor-attracted person” or a gay man want to be grouped with a “queer (I.e., straight woman) female who does only have sex with men but has a fancy haircut and lots of earrings.

LGB is not a fashion statement.

How about you go on Twitter or Reddit trans subs and suggest 3rd spaces? Report back with your experience.

This. I don't think anyone has ever done this when asked, you could be the first! I'm sure they'll appreciate the suggestion.

This sounds like retconning to me.

The majority of those pushing to add the T were middle-aged/elderly heterosexual fathers in the beginning.

Originally, before Blanchard/Bailey got involved, the only men who were accepted for sexual reassignment surgery were gay men, so they already belonged to the LGB (and wanted out -to be straight).

Lesbians started to get into it in noughties in the USA and in Europe in the twenty tens.

That telling children about LGB/trans people will encourage them to do things they might regret later, or lead them into a life which is likely to be unfulfilled and lonely, and in which they won’t be able to have children with their partner in the normal way.

Well, telling kids they can be the opposite sex [if they like the 'wrong' toys], and pushing them down a route that leads to sterilisation does indeed lead them into a life where they won't be able to have children in the normal way doesn't it?

I realise now, from the above, that heterosexual fathers like J Morris were given sexual reassignment surgery in the UK - so the limitation to homosexual men must have been an American thing.

Relevant thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

LangCleg (forever in Weetabix)

But the intention to completely erode all women’s boundaries were there from the get go.

Yep. Remember this when people come on here and tell you that our current problems are all the fault of johnny-come-latelies who have ruined it all for the "true trans". It's not true.

AdamRyan · Today 08:04
It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

Do you have any evidence to support that? I'm a lesbian and I was out and about in London in the 90s, during the AIDS years. I was a volunteer at THT and so came into contact with a lot of gay men. There were always gay drag queens and transsexuals on the fringes of the gay scene, but I didn't hear the word transgender used until around 2007. Everything was definitely just LGB till then. Stonewall was flirting with the TQ+ from around that time. I went to a Stonewall conference and was seated next to a straight man and his girlfriend for one small group session. They were Queer, apparently. I can remember taking it back to the regional rep, whom I knew, and asking wtf was going on.

When I trawl through my own memories of that time, around 2007, I remember there was a concerted effort to centre men in feminism- 3rd Wave ‘anti-censorship’ or ‘sex-positive’ feminism, this was prior to intersectional analysis coming to the fore.

Any feminist group, individual, blog or anything, was set upon and scolded and berated until they included ‘transwomen’ or said that (made up) ‘transmisogyny’ was just as bad or worse than misogyny. It was really out of the blue, aggressive and odd. For hypothetical example, there might be a feminist blog where the blogger said ‘violence against women and girls is endemic’ and flying monkeys would be all over the comments saying ‘why are you not acknowledging the much worse plight of transwomen, I can’t believe you are calling yourself feminist and being so transphobic, blah, blah, blah’, then the person who had written the blog would edit it to say ‘violence against women and girls, particularly transwomen, is endemic’.

The way I saw it, was that feminism/women’s rights was hijacked before the LGB. Although I do remember that the flying monkeys seemed to be women who identified as ‘queer’.

Indeed. When I was at a red brick uni in the late 90’s it was definitely the LGB soc. no T in sight

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT

LGBT is an initialism that stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender. In use since the 1990s, the initialism, as well as some of its common variants, functions as an umbrella term for sexuality and gender identity.[1]

It was definitely used when i was at uni in mid 90s

Where’s the citation in that Wikipedia entry to verify that assertion?

The [1] links to another Wikipedia page.

Oh ffs
The question was why some people believe "there is no LGB without T"
I was making the point that i think LGB people who support the T feel a sense of solidarity about being born differently and having to come out
Where's your evidence to support your assertion that I am "outright lying"?

It was definitely used when i was at uni in mid 90s

Not where I was. It came later, IME. It certainly wasn't mainstream.

I don’t have evidence. Just my clear memories and a gathering horror at how transactivists have been memory-holing and retconning history.

Wikipedia is retcon central