Why is there 'no LGB without the T'?

[Righthandcider]

Something’s been going around my head in circles.

I’ve seen the mantra ‘No LGB without the T’ repeated in several places.

But exactly why have so many LGB organisations aligned themselves with trans hook, line and sinker? I mean one might argue that well-meaning LGB groups have been sucked in by TRAs who are blatantly piggy backing, borrowing the legacy of the gay liberation movement to shut down any debate by making it seem backwards and ‘phobic’ to question them in any way. But LGB groups themselves obviously don’t see the relationship this way. Most of them don’t seem to think they’re being used.

So what is it that they think they have in common with trans activists? Isn’t there a bloody huge elephant in the room? LGB rights are about ensuring nobody is treated differently because of their sexuality. That's literally what unites lesbian, gay and bi people.

I thought the party line for trans rights is that being trans is separate from and independent of a person’s sexuality. It’s simply about whether they feel they are male, female, neither or both.

So where’s the overlap? Why are LGB groups giving their energy to fighting for the ‘T’, to the point of saying there’s ‘no LGB without it’, if it’s not about sexuality?

Is it because they actually feel deep down that it IS about sexuality?

That it’s partly about same sex attraction, in that a lot of gay people still feel the pressure of homophobia and would rather be transed out of it?

That it’s partly about autogynaephilia, in that many cross dressers can now hold their heads high as stunning and brave better versions of 'cis' women, while enjoying the fulfilment of their ultimate sexual fantasy?

If it’s not either of those things, then where exactly is the natural connection between LBG and T? The only explanation I’ve seen anywhere is that ‘they are another marginalised group’. But there are many other marginalised groups, so why join with this one in particular?

I’m interested to hear people’s views.

Because the Edinburgh ATH manifesto is so batshit that I don’t think TAs will appreciate it resurfacing, here is the archive link
web.archive.org/web/20230125170030/www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

By coincidence, this thread has come up about a WOS article referencing the Edinburgh ATH manifesto, and it also exposes so much more dangerous craziness. RMW is completely wrong about wanting ‘offenders to be dealt with’.

In the linked article you can see that these boundary-pushers have been central and instrumental to the GRR in Scotland. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4726401-wings-over-scotland-the-grooming-of-holyrood

Ah that's a blast from the past. I'd forgotten about edinburgh ATH, proudly associated with Ada Wells - who called women "cunt scum"

Actually a few of these people have dropped off the radar and I'd be interested if they detransitioned after that - Lily Madigan being another

IMHO, the LGB-Alliance should have a "T" in their name, seeing as trans-people are what they mostly talk about.

This Ada Wells?

Fuck! That is grim datun

Nasty, isn't it?

As if they're M&Ms.

Another thread is about the falling birth rate and encouraging women to be single mothers and then we have people that believe children should be given medication/have medical procedures that render them infertile.
Crazy.

The OP asked why there is a T in LGBT. What is the reason?

"Historically, trans people and sexuality diverse people have faced similar challenges and discrimination, and an inclusive human rights movement emerged because their communities, who so often gathered together, began to realise that they were being treated in similar ways just because of who they were, and were seeking similar rights of autonomy, agency and self-determination. We live in a world today where some of these rights have been granted to some groups, so it can sometimes make it difficult to remember that their struggles were once far more similar."

And when you consider that a very high number of these child patients are also reported as being Autistic, gay or lesbian, or with mental health challenges? It's exceptionally dodgy. There are words for reducing the fertility of particular population groups.

We live in a world today where some of these rights have been granted to some groups, so it can sometimes make it difficult to remember that their struggles were once far more similar.

Yes, that all sounds lovely. But.

At what point did T people not have equality of civil and marital rights? They had it before the LG population did.

At what point did T serve hard labour in prison for being caught being T in their private life?

At what point did they risk losing their job if caught being T in their private life?

What rights exactly do LG people have that T people don't?

There is an exact equality of legal and civil rights. An exact one. What is being sought is the right to falsify official documents to preferred information instead of actual information, and the right for male people to trump women's rights and enter women's spaces regardless of impact, exclusion and harm to women.

No one else has those rights. These should not be rights that anyone has.

Sick to the back teeth on several threads this morning of actual fact being dressed up in very nice sounding burble that hides the reality of the intent.

There is a reason that plain speech is being avoided. It's a PT Barnum job, in the hope of fooling most of the people most of the time into going along with something they would not accept if it was clearly stated.

That quote above from 0Oo is weird sort of retrospective justification, which seems to effectively suggesting that "trans" and "LGB" have nothing in common, apart from "being (historically) oppressed".

Now, this is kind of true for the modern "transgender" (or indeed MAPs or furries or non-binaries or any other of the hangers on in LGBQWERTY) - basically there's nothing in common, but the groups are trying to make out they're oppressed like homosexuals have been. (Despite it clearly not being true, as nils points out).

But originally, the T meant transsexual, who were clearly part of the LGB group, being predominantly homosexual themselves, and hence who were hit by exactly the same discrimination and laws as all other homosexuals. They're the only part of the post-LGB extension that actually have any real commonality.

But those homosexual transsexuals are now a distinct minority of the modern "T". As indeed homosexuals are a minority generally - once heterosexual transvestites were grouped with them, this was inevitable.

It takes a certain mind set to argue for extra rights for trans people by aligning them with gay people, when one of those 'trans rights' is to erase homosexuality completely.

The determination to use anything, even the very thing you're trying to obliterate, in pursuit of that obliteration is breathtakingly self serving.

It takes a certain mind set to argue for extra rights for trans people by aligning them with gay people, when one of those 'trans rights' is to erase homosexuality completely.

The determination to use anything, even the very thing you're trying to obliterate, in pursuit of that obliteration is breathtakingly self serving.

Nail.On.The.Head.

But originally, the T meant transsexual, who were clearly part of the LGB group, being predominantly homosexual themselves,

My understanding is that transexuals were most often heterosexual men.

Your speculation, you mean.

Not at all. I have read very widely.

Indeed, and as far as I am concerned the T meant transexual to me, until recently.

Saying this, the drag queens and drag men still got shat on; The voguers in NY got beaten up along with them; The transexuals, who seldom had access to medical transitions, would have come across as transvestites, even if they were transexuals got shat on; Got beaten up by the police, didn't get jobs, and got sent to jail.

Still in many countries get rounded up by the police and sent to prison, or far worse.

Regarding violence towards LGBT, I read this report by the Council of Europe, Combating rising hate against LGBTI people in Europe.

It's a summary, but an eye-opener. On page
8, 15, they highlight the recent growth in LGBTI murders and attacks.
Here is an excerpt detailing murders of gay men and women, trans-people, and intersex people.
Incidents of feminicide have increased across Europe.

"

1. The Assembly deplores these phenomena, which can be observed throughout Europe, regardless of the extent of protection already afforded to the human rights of LGBTI people in any given country. It moreover condemns with particular force the extensive and often virulent attacks on the rights of LGBTI people that have been occurring for several years in, amongst other countries, Hungary, Poland, the Russian Federation, Turkey and the United Kingdom.

....

12. Heteronormative, heterosexist societies, collectively stifle the identities and realities of all those who challenge the established sex and gender hierarchy – although this order only works in favour of masculine, cisgender men and the individuals they choose to protect. This is why the fights for women’s rights and the rights of LGBTI people are so closely linked. The prevailing social order designates as shameful the bodies of intersex persons who do not conform to the binary male/female paradigm,10 and the sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression of everyone who does not fit the heterosexist norm. Even in societies which have repealed many of the discriminatory laws that are the legal manifestations of heteronormativity and have enacted legislation designed to better protect the rights of LGBTI people, persons who do not hide the fact that they are LGBTI continue to be targets for insult and attack. In the United Kingdom, for example, 99% of pupils hear “gay” used as a term of abuse in schools, and “pédé” (“faggot”) is the most common insult in French schools.1

13. Hate messages targeting LGBTI people are also disseminated through the media, internet, video games and music. Hate speech is reported to have risen on social media in Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Malta, Montenegro, the Russian Federation and Turkey in the past year, and in the general media in Slovenia and Ukraine. It remains an ongoing issue in Georgia, Ireland, Netherlands, North Macedonia, Portugal, Romania, the Slovak Republic, Spain and the United Kingdom

14. Violence against LGBTI individuals, human rights defenders and organisations is regularly reported in all Council of Europe member States. Some attacks on Pride events have been discussed above. Violence is also expressed through attacks on property and buildings belonging to LGBTI organisations. Such attacks sometimes occur repeatedly. In Montenegro, for example, in a single year, an LGBT centre was attacked 20 times, with stones thrown, windows broken and tear gas bombs used, and the director of the LGBT Forum Progress was attacked 19 times.58 In Ukraine, three attacks targeting safe spaces and events of LGBTI people in Kyiv, and one in Odesa, were carried out by far right groups in May 2021 alone.59

15. Murders motivated by anti-LGBTI hate also occur. To mention only a few of the cases reported over recent years, at least four transgender women were killed in Turkey in 2018.60 In January 2018, a gender non- conforming person was attacked and beaten in the city centre of Saint Petersburg (Russian Federation) due to their feminine appearance and the lipstick they were wearing.61 TGEU reported the murder of 11 trans people in Europe in 2020, 50% of whom were migrants.62 Lesbians are also victims of attacks in many European countries, and of feminicide.63 In 2019, a young lesbian was killed in Italy by a man seeking revenge after she refused his advances.64 In Latvia, a gay man died on 29 April 2021 after experiencing burns to 85% of his body, when his clothes were soaked with fuel and set alight. He had moved to Tukums after receiving homophobic death threats when living in Riga, but had been physically attacked at least four times after the move. Campaigners denounced police inaction in his case; his death has reportedly sparked debate about homophobia in Latvia.65 In Spain, a gay man was beaten to death in A Coruña, in July 2021, and there have been violent attacks against LGBTI people in several cities in recent months.66

16. Killing, harming or threatening another human being because of their sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics can never be justified. It is crucial that such motivations be recognised as aggravating circumstances in criminal legislation, and that hate crimes legislation be effective, and applied in practice. Impunity is the worst possible response, as it legitimises anti-LGBTI violence, discrimination and hate. These phenomena are also legitimised by the anti-gender movement, with its dehumanising discourse insisting that people’s innermost identities are nothing but so-called “gender ideology”.

17. As discussed below, violent manifestations of hatred towards LGBTI people are not always “simply” random, individual attacks: even more worryingly, some are also highly organised, and even State-sponsored. In September 2017, Azerbaijani police targeted and detained dozens of gay men and transgender women in Baku on dubious charges, ill-treated and humiliated them – including subjecting them to forced medical tests – and imprisoned or fined them.67 Such actions by the police have moreover emboldened non-State actors to engage in increasingly systematic attacks on LGBTI people.

18. Nowhere, however, has there been more horrifying violence committed against LGBTI people in Europe in recent decades than in the State-sponsored attacks carried out against LGBTI people in Chechnya in 2017, which the Assembly denounced in its Resolution 2230 (2018) “Persecution of LGBTI people in the Chechen Republic (Russian Federation)”. The Assembly noted that a campaign of persecution including cases of abduction, arbitrary
    detention and torture of men presumed to be gay , with the direct involvement of the Chechen law enforcement officials, unfolded against a backdrop of serious, systemic and wide-spread discrimination and harassment of LGBTI people in the Chechen Republic. The leader of the Chechen Republic, Ramzan Kadyrov, responded by publicly vilifying LGBTI people as “devils” and “subhuman”, and denied their very existence in Chechnya.68 In an unambiguous reference to so-called “honour” killings, a human rights violation that continues to be practised in Chechnya, a spokesperson for Mr Kadyrov said, “If there were such people in Chechnya, the law-enforcement organs wouldn’t need to have anything to do with them because their relatives would send them somewhere from which there is no returning.”69 Lesbians and trans people have also been targeted by such attacks."

Yet I read similar virulent speech on this very forum. A forum meant to be for parents to bring up their children. Why all the hate for a minority of a minority?

After reading the Council of Europe extract above, would you ask yourselves, is this the society you want to live in?
Is this the place you want to bring up your children in?
Are you so vehemently anti-trans that you will subject society to horror to achieve your goals?

Source:

Council of Europe report : assembly.coe.int/LifeRay/EGA/Pdf/TextesProvisoires/2021/20210921-RisingHateLGBTI-EN.pdf

I was under the impression that the heterosexual men dressing in womens' clothes were called crossdressers, or transvestites. These were not transsexuals.

I'll tell you what society I don't want to live in as a homosexual.

One in which I'm told to 'learn to cope' with sex with men because the men want it and can't see me as human or that sex is for me to enjoy as opposed to provide as an unpaid sex therapy worker, and that 'learning to cope' with unwanted, unenjoyed sex is the most I can hope for out of life. Because of being female and homosexual.

One in which men have workshops on how to get underwear off the non consenting unwilling vaginas of female homosexuals that they feel entitled to the bodies of.

One in which homosexual people are told they're fetishists, sexual racists, where men carry baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire for the punishment of women who dare to have identities of their own instead of serve men's chosen identities.

One in which homosexual people are excluded from gay pride for being homosexual.

One in which as a homosexual I am constantly forced teamed with and nagged and harassed about how grateful/sympathetic I should be to a group who want to obliterate my identity and sexuality and coerce me into the sexual service of men, and constantly told about how lovely I'm supposed to be finding this.

Clue: I'm not.

https://twitter.com/rodericogorman/status/1641832872771289090?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Roderic o Gormon the Irish Minister for children tweeted those very words yesterday! Read the comments under the tweet 😂 lgb community are furious & rightly so.