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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversion therapy ban. Update.

79 replies

KatMcBundleFace · 15/01/2023 16:52

www.itv.com/news/2023-01-15/government-to-announce-law-banning-conversion-therapy

Interesting piece from ITV on government legislation on gay and trans conversion therapy. Seems the government is moving towards legislation and will include gender identity (if they can define it), it remains to be seen what form this will take.

Metro's take is triumphant but I think we should watch this space.
metro.co.uk/2023/01/15/uk-to-announce-law-banning-gay-and-transgender-conversion-therapy-18103466/

Surely the Cass Report needs to be taken into account here? The parts about gender being often fluid under 25? The parts about social transitioning not being without consequence?

This feels never ending.

OP posts:
transdimensional · 17/01/2023 20:36

Is the govt trying to have it both ways - win the votes of GC folk by blocking the Scottish law, and win the votes of the TR crowd by banning gender identity conversion?

titchy · 17/01/2023 20:49

transdimensional · 17/01/2023 20:36

Is the govt trying to have it both ways - win the votes of GC folk by blocking the Scottish law, and win the votes of the TR crowd by banning gender identity conversion?

Yep absolutely. The truth is neither the Scottish parliament, nor Westminster actually care about what is best for trans people. They are simply being used as pawns in a fight for independence in the case of Scotland, and and to appeal to Labour voters in the case of the UK parliament.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/01/2023 20:53

WishIWasACavewoman · 17/01/2023 13:38

Sought out this thread as i was sure there had to be one, and as always learning a lot from the articulate, insightful and well-informed posters on here.

The irreverent side of me is wondering whether anyone could bring a case against a school, lobby group or therapy clinic, for breaching the conversion therapy ban by acting to indoctrinate young people into trans ideology, ie attempting to conan impressionable person to become trans...

Depending on the wording of any bill, given the crude / crass stereotypes and beliefs that are openly pushed at children from born in the wrong body narrative onwards, I'd have thought there's enough evidence to make a serious case against lobby groups performing conversion therapy on children.
So much evidence, recordings, dubious SRE materials bloody everywhere.

FusionChefGeoff · 17/01/2023 22:52

@WishIWasACavewoman this was my first thought! Surely the 'conversion' around gender identity is very much going one way at the moment so it could be a huge own goal if parents started to use the proposed law against TRA groups.

After all, they're the ones who are effectively converting vulnerable / neurodiverse / homosexual people (mostly children) into transgender people!!!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/01/2023 23:00

Yep absolutely. The truth is neither the Scottish parliament, nor Westminster actually care about what is best for trans people

They really don’t give a fuck about women either.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/01/2023 00:40

FusionChefGeoff · Yesterday 22:52
@WishIWasACavewoman this was my first thought! Surely the 'conversion' around gender identity is very much going one way at the moment so it could be a huge own goal if parents started to use the proposed law against TRA groups.

After all, they're the ones who are effectively converting vulnerable / neurodiverse / homosexual people (mostly children) into transgender people!!!

That is so true. But it probably would never work that way.

If they ban the counselling which could reveal those aspects behind children’s dysphoria, then they will be able to pretend those factors simply don’t exist. Trans rights activists want to promote the belief that people are born trans and need to be who they are. They can’t be wrong. They can’t allow that they may be mentally troubled in any way.

They’ll bury the evidence of the conversions to trans by not allowing the means of finding out that the children’s dysphoria was caused by other problems.

Given the new NHS gender service to replace The Tavistock is being informed by Stonewall and Mermaids, even without the ban on conversion therapy, it’s possible they will carry on harming children with lots of conversions to trans too.

WarriorN · 18/01/2023 06:18

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2023 16:34

Affirming trans without counselling could be converting gay. There was a man in the U.K. last year who was suing the NHS (?) for sending him through the reassignment process to the point of castration which he then regretted.

Now in hindsight he feels he was really just gay but confused.

Ritchie Heron - even worse, he had an extensive medical record for ocd, anxiety and depression and I think he's mentioned possible autism or an autism diagnosis.

Any therapist worth their salt would have unpicked a childhood full of sexism and homophobia.

Also, he didn't particularly want srs. They were going to take him off the counselling list but if he had srs he could remain on it.

The system is an absolute mess.

Also said the idea he was trans was 100 % internet fuelled.

NecessaryScene · 18/01/2023 06:48

They’ll bury the evidence of the conversions to trans by not allowing the means of finding out that the children’s dysphoria was caused by other problems.

They don't even bother being that subtle. From other bills we've seen, they're explicitly written asymmetrically.

It's only only conversion from gay or "trans", not to that's criminalised.

You could possibly arguing that they're trying to convert gay kids into "straight trans" kids, following through with the "words don't mean anything" logic.

(Note that the EA2010 is also asymmetric - discrimination against someone with gender reassignment is barred; discrimination against someone without is not.)

ResisterRex · 18/01/2023 22:27

Article in the Telegraph saying it was that Online Safety Bill amendment that caused this:

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/18/how-tories-trans-unity-torpedoed-penny-mordaunt-ally/

"a complicated timing issue was about to cause problems for the Government.
Mr Jack had to make his announcement on his reaction to Ms Sturgeon’s Bill the following day. However, the previous Friday, Ms Kearns had put down an amendment to an entirely separate piece of legislation - the Online Safety Billl_ - which forced the Government’s hand on conversion therapy.
Her amendment stated that internet content which advertises or promotes conversion therapy must be considered “harmful” - meaning the sites could be prosecuted.
This put the Government in a bind because the Bill was due to be debated in the Commons this week, meaning ministers had to decide how to respond quickly.
Their answer, which emerged at the weekend, was to say that a long-promised Bill to ban conversion therapy would be published in draft form in the coming months - and that it would include a ban on therapists trying to persuade people not to change their gender.
Tory divisions exposed
On Tuesday - the same day as Mr Jack made his statement to the Commons - Michelle Donelan, the Culture Secretary, put out a written ministerial statement confirming the move, as well as pledging that parents, teachers and doctors would not be inadvertently criminalised.
On the one hand, this had the desired effect - Ms Kearns removed her amendment to the Online Safety Billl_. But on the other, it exposed Tory divisions on the trans issue.
On Wednesday, Damian Green, a former deputy PM, told the Telegraph he believed "dozens" of Tory MPs could vote against a trans conversion ban if the Government did not get the safeguards right.
He said: "This is a very sensitive and difficult area in which feelings run high. Ministers will have to be very careful and precise about what exactly they are planning to outlaw."
Tim Loughton, a former children’s minister, has also predicted a “big backlash”, and on Wednesday suggested that better party management could have prevented the conversion therapy announcement overshadowing the row with Scotland, saying: “I haven't a clue what they are up to.”
'There is no managing someone like that'
But another Tory MP said Ms Kearns was at fault, saying: “Alicia is not controllable by party managerss_, and she is very passionately involved in these trans issues, on the wrong side in my view. There is no managing someone like that.
“At some stage the Tory party was going to have to come to a position on these issues, and it has certainly caused confusion that the Scottish issue and the online safety issue came out on the same day.
“What Alicia will find out is that she is not the centre of gravity of the Tory party on this.
“The Prime Minister will face more pressure from the majority side of the party on this. This side believes that people should not be allowed to self-identify, it should not be allowed to medically alter anyone who is not an adult, and that women’s spaces need to be protected.
“The thing about Alicia is - when she is in full sail, she is in full sail. I’m not sure there is anything that party managers could have done.”"

DarkDayforMN · 18/01/2023 22:35

It sounds like Alicia Kearns is a very effective politician. What a shame she’s on the wrong side of history.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/01/2023 22:45

NecessaryScene · Today 06:48

They’ll bury the evidence of the conversions to trans by not allowing the means of finding out that the children’s dysphoria was caused by other problems.

They don't even bother being that subtle. From other bills we've seen, they're explicitly written asymmetrically.

It's only only conversion from gay or "trans", not to that's criminalised.

You could possibly arguing that they're trying to convert gay kids into "straight trans" kids, following through with the "words don't mean anything" logic.

(Note that the EA2010 is also asymmetric - discrimination against someone with gender reassignment is barred; discrimination against someone without is not.)

That’s very well spotted about the asymmetry Necessary.

They’d scream blue murder at the idea you can cause someone to be trans because ‘that’s not possible, people are born trans’.
Over on another thread someone mentioned that within her friendship group no fewer than five teenagers are now transboys. There is no way nature throws out five anomalies all at the same time in such a small group. It is a cult.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/01/2023 23:01

From the Telegraph article posted by ResisterRex

The Prime Minister will face more pressure from the majority side of the party on this. This side believes that people should not be allowed to self-identify, it should not be allowed to medically alter anyone who is not an adult, and that women’s spaces need to be protected.

Let us hope this is true. How awful that the first idea was this:
Their answer, which emerged at the weekend, was to say that a long-promised Bill to ban conversion therapy would be published in draft form in the coming months - and that it would include a ban on therapists trying to persuade people not to change their gender.

ResisterRex · 19/01/2023 06:45

Also here today:

Legal protection for parents discussing gender with children

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dc24e850-9771-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=f6be73b0c64c75f44d7720d201626e58

Boiledbeetle · 19/01/2023 07:29

Parents will be given specific legal protection to discuss gender identity matters with their children under plans being considered by Kemi Badenoch, the equalities minister, for a long-delayed ban on conversion therapy.

From the times link from Rex.

Imagine as a parent having to require legal protection to TALK TO YOUR CHILD!!

it just blows my mind that they (the government) can find themselves at a point where THAT is the decision they make.

Sorry it's early for me i can't formulate my thoughts yet. other than to say

Insane! Fucking insane.

ResisterRex · 19/01/2023 08:00

Imagine as a parent having to require legal protection to TALK TO YOUR CHILD!!

This is such a good point. A good end result would be legal advice that such a ban isn't workable / legal. That would stop Labour from coming in and fucking around with it if they win.

RoyalCorgi · 19/01/2023 08:32

I think one of the things that the government needs to bear in mind is that the Dutch protocol, which has been used to justify putting gender-dysphoric children on a medical pathway, has been shown to be fundamentally flawed:

segm.org/Dutch-studies-critically-flawed

It is very very difficult indeed to justify an affirmation model that endorses a child's belief that they are trans and puts them on a pathway to hormones and/or surgery.

WarriorN · 19/01/2023 18:56

Yes, also this link by Michael Biggs. Looking at how Dutch model was flawed and mermaids got involved

madaashellshell · 23/01/2023 18:12

I looked at the so-called research behind the Ban Conversion Therapy campaign for Transgender Trend. There is no evidence that it occurs in the UK but there is evidence that those pushing for it were unable to find any evidence when they first started to campaign. I wrote this before the Coventry research project was published - it didn't change my view. It doesn't happen in the way activists claim. What does happen is that possibly gay/lesbian teens are being persuaded that their problems will be solved by transition. This is the link to my piece: www.transgendertrend.com/gender-identity-conversion-therapy-uk/

PennysRevenge · 25/01/2023 08:14

There’s a deeply upsetting article about a You.gov poll in today’s Guardian conflating LGB and T experiences of conversion therapy — not once in the homophobic and slanted article does it discuss the fact that current TRA ideology IS conversion therapy for LGB individuals.

Is there any way we can protest such slanted journalism? It’s actually so insidious as it is using anti-gay hate to attack LGB people under the guise of being a “pro-gay” conflated category. But it is the conversion therapy of LGB people nonetheless.

ScrollingLeaves · 25/01/2023 09:33

I hope people read it and come on here to help work out the best points to gather together in order to make complaints.

ResisterRex · 25/01/2023 10:49

Just seen that the FSU has a letter writing campaign:

twitter.com/speechunion/status/1617853092866805762?s=46&t=r8Rqe3Ek64IHatXinbfuSw

I always think you should use what's out there but tweak your letter as being sent multiple letters that are the same don't have the impact. But people can be pressed for time and this letter is quite comprehensive. It even includes the Australian state of Victoria example.

The letter is here:

freespeechunion.org/take-action/

Dear {{MP}},

I am writing to express my concern about the proposed ban on conversion therapy recently announced by the Culture Secretary Michelle Donelan. I oppose all coercive or violent attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity and it is right that, as the Government’s own 2021 consultation briefing on conversion therapy put it: “Our existing criminal law framework means that conversion therapy amounting to offences of physical or sexual violence is already illegal in this country.” However, the present proposals threaten to have negative consequences for freedom of speech, particularly in relation to gender identity.

To begin with, I am concerned about the impact of such a ban on the freedom of speech of religious leaders, e.g., the bill could make it a criminal offence for a religious leader to tell a member of their congregation that homosexuality is a ‘sin’ or ‘haram’. In the state of Victoria in Australia, which banned conversion therapy in 2021, it is a crime punishable by up to 10 years in jail and a fine of up to £100,000 for a religious leader to have a one-to-one conversation with a member of their congregation in which they pressurise them to practice celibacy rather than act on their feelings of same-sex attraction.

The prospect of the state prohibiting, on pain of imprisonment, what a religious leader is able to say to a member of their faith about what their religion teaches about homosexuality is alarming enough. But even more worrying is the prospect that conversations between parents and children about their gender identity will be caught by the new law.

As Kemi Badenoch, the International Trade Secretary and Minister for Women and Equalities, has pointed out, it’s possible that a poorly-drafted bill would bring conversations between parents and their children within scope of the ban, effectively meaning parents who attempted to dissuade their children from having risky medical treatments could be prosecuted. In the state of Victoria, for instance, it’s a crime for a parent to refuse to support their child’s request for puberty blockers.

The risk is that various legitimate alternatives – such as referring a young person with a history of mental illness who identifies as trans to a psychotherapist before they decide to embark on an irreversible medical pathway, or simply encouraging them to pause and reflect – might fall foul of a ban on ‘conversion therapy’. In this way, a poorly drafted bill would force medical professionals to rule out treatments that they believe are in the best interests of some of their trans patients – forcing them to break their Hippocratic Oath. Former clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic have reported that they were subject to unfounded accusations of ‘transphobia’ for recommending a ‘watchful waiting’ approach and there is a risk that the bill would criminalise such advice. Doctors have both a right and a duty to recommend what in their judgment is the best clinical pathway for a patient who identifies as trans, particularly if that patient is a minor.

This is important, given that research on and around gender identity is still in its infancy, and it cannot be ruled out that in some cases identifying as trans may be symptomatic of a mental disorder – ‘gender dysphoria’ still appears in the latest edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the Bible of the American psychiatric profession.

Nor can it be ruled out that an adolescent who identifies as trans and wants to embark on transitioning is simply being swept along by a trend within their peer group or on social media. If they are not persuaded to wait before undergoing a life-changing medical procedure, such as a double mastectomy, they may come to regret it. Is it really in the best interests of such adolescents to criminalise attempts by parents or clinicians to make them pause and reflect before permanently changing their bodies?

I am not in principle opposed to a ban on conversion therapy, although I have yet to be persuaded that the sort of practices that should be banned, such as attempting to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity through pseudo-scientific quack ‘treatments’, are not already illegal. But I believe there is a serious risk that if conversion therapy is defined too widely in this bill it will have a negative impact on the free speech of religious leaders, medical professionals and parents and, in some cases, that could lead to children undergoing life-changing medical treatments that they later come to regret.

As your constituent, I am asking you to scrutinise this bill very carefully when it comes before the House of Commons and make sure that the risks it poses to free speech are avoided.

Yours Sincerely,

{{NAME}}

Address: {{ADDRESS}}

ScrollingLeaves · 25/01/2023 12:42

In my opinion looking at that Australian letter, think the pro-religious reason will back fire if over stressed, as it could be a horrible form of horrible moral blackmail and mental coercion for a homosexual or for someone who thinks they should be the other gender ( possibly even because of homophobia). So religion should only be lightly touched on, perhaps pointing out that prayer should not be banned outright.

PennysRevenge · 25/01/2023 12:42

My main issue is the conversion therapy of LGB people under this guise — not religious rights.

PennysRevenge · 25/01/2023 12:48

I find religious conversion therapy of lesbians, gay men and bisexual people DISGUSTING. I am secularist and I find anti-gay conversion therapy beyond contempt.

This is why I oppose the the TRA-bill that effectively practices conversion therapy on LGB youth by “fixing” them so they are putatively “straight.