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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversion therapy ban. Update.

79 replies

KatMcBundleFace · 15/01/2023 16:52

www.itv.com/news/2023-01-15/government-to-announce-law-banning-conversion-therapy

Interesting piece from ITV on government legislation on gay and trans conversion therapy. Seems the government is moving towards legislation and will include gender identity (if they can define it), it remains to be seen what form this will take.

Metro's take is triumphant but I think we should watch this space.
metro.co.uk/2023/01/15/uk-to-announce-law-banning-gay-and-transgender-conversion-therapy-18103466/

Surely the Cass Report needs to be taken into account here? The parts about gender being often fluid under 25? The parts about social transitioning not being without consequence?

This feels never ending.

OP posts:
onyttig · 16/01/2023 16:51

Stonewalls stories are:

Carolyn: happened in the 1950s.
George: seems to have joined one of those cults masquerading as churches at 17; no indication of how recent this was.
Jeremy: didn’t actually experience conversion therapy; sought support in homophobic society through religion.
Maya: The therapy in Israel (so nothing to do with UK law); her problem with UK rabbis is more a lack of support and affirmation not conversion.
Eli: appears to from an ultra orthodox Jewish background and had an obviously very abusive experience. Bad therapy then sent to a camp. Interestingly the details of where he was sent are very vague - may or may not have been the UK. What he describes is clearly already illegal.
Joe: sought out conversion therapy. Therapist based in the USA. Decided to
stop it himself (no coercion)
Justin: brought up in a homophobic religious atmosphere. Chose to leave the family church to join the church where he experienced conversion therapy. (Much?) more than a decade ago.
Emily: I’m struggling to even see this as ‘conversion’ anything. The pastor told her there was nothing wrong with being gay and encouraged her to come out to her parents. She’s clearly had a struggle with religion and sexuality in her life, but I’m not sure why stonewall are telling her story as a horrors of conversion therapy tale.
Ibrahim: Muslim background this time. Voluntarily attended a single appointment with a really bad ‘therapist’.
Liam: raised in a homophobic religious community. Had a bad experience with openly homophobic (and anti-trans) pastors at church. Mother stepped in and confronted the pastors -whole family left the church.

Now, the stories are generally not great and quite clearly indicate the damage that homophobia and internalised homophobia can do in someone’s life. (Hint Stonewall: that is where your activism should be directed!)

But as a compelling set of stories to illustrate the need to ‘end conversion practice’… it’s not a strong evidence base.

I’m not convinced that a bill outlawing ‘conversion practices’ could possibly be the right way to tackle issues where people brought up in deeply homophobic religious communities (and these stories are not of mainstream religious practice at all) who seek out support and even conversion from religious groups they know to be extremely homophobic.

I think too that, in part, you are starting to bump up against some real difficulties in reconciling different rights that potentially
impact upon the equalities act. There are tensions between freedom of (some) religious belief and freedoms around sexuality that the stories clearly indicate. And, potentially, tensions around race and ethnicity.

Stonewall might not need to to consider nuance or tread sensitively in their activism. But the UK government does need to think through the implications and tread very carefully before they start legislating against cultural and religious views in (ultra) Orthodox Judaism, or Islam, or a range of churches (many of which are may well be heavily associated with black African or African American communities).

onyttig · 16/01/2023 17:40

It seems obvious to me, given the focus on orthodox Jewish communities in several of those stories, that labour in particular should think very carefully and engage proper with communities to understand their positions - not jump on the right side of history bandwagon without thinking through the complexities here.

ResisterRex · 16/01/2023 20:12

Kathleen Stock in the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/16/children-who-will-pay-surrender-stonewall-trans-agenda/

It’s children who will pay for this surrender to the Stonewall trans agenda

"Doubtless Sunak is under pressure from trans activists, whose influence on the UK establishment remains regrettably strong despite a number of recent blows to their credibility. Perhaps the goal is to offer a sop to appease them in light of the UK government’s controversial proposed intervention in the Scottish Gender Recognition Bill row.
There’s no good reason for the Government to give one inch. Since 2015, trans activists have pushed unrelentingly for policies that affirm any and all trans identity claims – whether it’s on gender recognition certificates, in prisons, hospital wards, classrooms, nurseries, or in the therapy room. Their continued obstinate deafness to obvious safeguarding concerns, whether for women or children, is frankly cult-like and not the behaviour of responsible public organisations. Sunak needs to think again, and fast."

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2023 00:17

Trans ideologists often see conversion therapy as any suggestion, or counselling, around the idea that there might something wrong with them - so exploration regarding past traumas, homophobia, difficulties with fitting in perhaps because autism, coming from care, peer pressure, could be construed as conversion therapy erasing their given that they feel they were born the way they are and there is nothing wrong with them.

WolverineBlueyy · 17/01/2023 08:00

I’m not convinced that a bill outlawing ‘conversion practices’ could possibly be the right way to tackle issues where people brought up in deeply homophobic religious communities (and these stories are not of mainstream religious practice at all) who seek out support and even conversion from religious groups they know to be extremely homophobic.

A post full of good points onyttig, the timing of this alongside the blocking of the GRR - also making similar points about trans legislation clashing with the equality act - is some coincidence.

WishIWasACavewoman · 17/01/2023 13:38

Sought out this thread as i was sure there had to be one, and as always learning a lot from the articulate, insightful and well-informed posters on here.

The irreverent side of me is wondering whether anyone could bring a case against a school, lobby group or therapy clinic, for breaching the conversion therapy ban by acting to indoctrinate young people into trans ideology, ie attempting to conan impressionable person to become trans...

WishIWasACavewoman · 17/01/2023 13:39

*to convert

ResisterRex · 17/01/2023 13:55

BBC story. But there's still no real detail. The only confirmed new bit SFAIK is the pre-legislative scrutiny

UK conversion therapy ban to include trans people www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64304142

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 17/01/2023 14:19

It’s going to depend on the detail so I’m waiting for that

Boiledbeetle · 17/01/2023 14:24

The Bill will aim to stop “abhorrent practices which do not work and cause extensive harm” and protect people’s freedom to love who they want, the Government said at the time.

It will only ban conversion therapy for over-18s “who do not consent and who are coerced or forced to undergo” the practices.

SinnerBoy · 17/01/2023 14:32

ScrollingLeaves · Today 00:17

Trans ideologists often see conversion therapy as any suggestion, or counselling, around the idea that there might something wrong with them...

And nobody in a position of power has corrected this. The two things are entirely unalike, psychological counselling, with a waiting brief is nothing like being forced to pray, being beaten, drugged etc to turn you straight.

It needs to be called out for the dishonest pile of crap it is.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2023 16:34

Affirming trans without counselling could be converting gay. There was a man in the U.K. last year who was suing the NHS (?) for sending him through the reassignment process to the point of castration which he then regretted.

Now in hindsight he feels he was really just gay but confused.

Grammarnut · 17/01/2023 16:41

This has been reported as fact by the BBC, that conversion therapy directed at transgender people is also to be banned. If this is so it's a terrible regression.

RaininginDarling · 17/01/2023 18:15

Grammarnut · 17/01/2023 16:41

This has been reported as fact by the BBC, that conversion therapy directed at transgender people is also to be banned. If this is so it's a terrible regression.

And so, what will happen is that therapists will refuse to work with trans identified or gender questioning people - because they will be unable to explore why those clients feel divorced from their bodily reality. And, as we know from detransitioners, there are many reasons why someone will identify as trans including internalised homophobia, trauma, CSA, and ASD.

It is an incredible disservice to these vulnerable people.

nilsmousehammer · 17/01/2023 18:47

It is.

However the HoL I suspect will pull it to bits, because in England we have the second chamber....

DarkDayforMN · 17/01/2023 19:03

It will only ban conversion therapy for over-18s “who do not consent and who are coerced or forced to undergo” the practices.

Devil’s in the detail, I know, and enshrining the idea in law that “conversion therapy” for “gender identity” even makes sense as a concept is probably a bad idea (isn’t “gender identity” fluid anyway ffs) but this sounds okayish?

(I do wonder what happens with e.g. an AGP who goes into the purge phase during therapy and blames their therapist for it when they’re off the wagon again. I think if I was a therapist I would avoid treating the begendered at all in the light of this law.)

BellaAmorosa · 17/01/2023 19:18

The aim is to get "gender identity" on the statute book. Then mission creep to overwrite sex in law can begin.

BellaAmorosa · 17/01/2023 19:19

Kathleen Stock is right as always - you mustn't try to compromise with nonsense.

midgetastic · 17/01/2023 19:30

So it's not ok to talk to someone about why they might feel like they do but it is ok to offer life changing surgery and hormones ?

Surely both or neither should be blocked

No one should be changed to meet some image

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2023 19:37

BellaAmorosa · Today 19:18
The aim is to get "gender identity" on the statute book. Then mission creep to overwrite sex in law can begin

And another good way is to start with children.

If you haven’t already, you may be interested in signing this petition against teaching ‘gender identity’ to children in RSE lessons in schools.

See below a poster provided to a primary school showing a No Outsiders skewed version if the Equalities Act; and another from Jigsaw, another resource provider, showing boy stereotype Billie, girl stereotype Bella, and non binary/trans (?) will choose whether to be a boy or a girl, or neither B.

The petition ends tomorrow the 18th.
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618970

Conversion therapy ban.  Update.
Conversion therapy ban.  Update.
Conversion therapy ban.  Update.
Boiledbeetle · 17/01/2023 19:46

Got to say if i was offering any sort of therapy i would have my clients signing a disclaimer at the start of each session agreeing not to sue me if subjects they found uncomfortable or didn't want to discuss came up.

ResisterRex · 17/01/2023 19:53

BellaAmorosa · 17/01/2023 19:18

The aim is to get "gender identity" on the statute book. Then mission creep to overwrite sex in law can begin.

This is absolutely the plan. If it's subject to pre-legislative scrutiny, then the end report of that process is going to be very important.

ResisterRex · 17/01/2023 20:17

Malcolm Clark has posted quite the informative video about a key proponent of the campaign for a conversion therapy ban in the US:

twitter.com/twisterfilm/status/1615357186309513216?s=46&t=JBIKKX9ZocgC9cQKnG5iyw

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