Help with ASD DS and non-binary

[Mossball]

DS is 15 and has ASD. Last year he was overweight and unhappy with his body and he made a concerted effort to lose weight. It was his focus. He restricted to the point I was worried about eating disorders.

He lost weight but was then unhappy with his body because he didn't have defined muscles and there was still body fat. He then decided to build muscle by weight lifting and that was his focus. He was great at this and his body is strong with clearly defined muscles.

He has now decided he's non-binary so is unhappy with his very clearly male body - he has very broad shoulders and large hands and feet. He also has a very deep voice. He wants to be more feminine so that people aren't sure if he's male or female. This is physically impossible because he's so clearly and obviously male. I'm not sure he is non-binary at all and I think this just reflects a deeper unhappiness that is hyperfocussed on his body.

How can I get help for him? I have been given places to take him for children who are non-binary but I don't see that helping. One of his friends wants to transition from male to female and DS seems to be saying stuff he's got from them. We are all over his internet access so I don't think he's looking at this online. Every professional seems to focus on the non-binary but given how DS has been I don't believe that's the solution. He's clearly unhappy but whether it's with his body or some other deep rooted unhappiness I don't know. Any suggestions for places I can ask for advice?

Hi, OP.

That sounds tricky. I expect your thoughts about the reasons for his unhappiness are spot on.

'Non-binary' is an entirely meaningless term, as far as I can work out. 'Doesn't wholly identify with sexist stereotypes' - who does?!

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/

genspect.org/

I agree you should steer clear of any group who are happy clappy affirmative about non binary gender identity.

It's not kind to these children to pretend that no one knows what sex they are. It's not achievable for most of them. He sounds like he's just struggling with growing up and going through puberty to me. Even if he took hormones he's still going to obviously be male.

Arabella's suggestions are good.

If you look around you, many people are NB without even realising it or having to label it or make an issue of it because it just seems to be about what you wear and how you choose to have your hair etc. A

As for deep voice etc - well, he’s a male and can’t do anything about this. Sounds as if he needs to boost his self esteem and stop navel gazing - do some voluntary work? Get a weekend job? Just don’t indulge it. In years to come, he’ll be embarrassed by how self absorbed this all seems to the outside world.

I've a DC who identified as NB 5 years ago- they are also autistic. This too was influenced by who they were friends with at school. My DC is now at Uni and has told me they no longer identify as NB but is getting backlash from the trans community for this 'betrayal'.

I have always said to my DC that some autistic people (and teens whether neuro divergent or not!) struggle with identity and who they are, and will want to conform to a group to belong and feel acceptance. I encouraged my DC to be proud of their autism and to join a group for young autistic people. I think this has given them a sense of self and belonging.

So my advice is to look into local youth groups that support autistic people and go along to some of those. Other than gym is there any other interests?

I think the focus should be finding a therapist who specialises in body dysmorphic disorder in males. Depending on where you live. Some geographical areas have a big culture of this coupled with lifestyle. It’s a niche area though, but I think this would be an appropriate avenue. One of the key features of BDD is never being satisfied with the results of changes, always needing to change again. If he pursues the non-binary aspect it will just progress to full transgender and further pursuit of never-ending body changes so I agree with avoiding affirmative services at all costs. The Gender Wider Lens podcast with the Dutch detransitioner Teiresias is worth listening to to get a perspective on this.

Failing that, focus on self-acceptance, self- compassion and I agree with FrancescaContini about engaging in real life, finding other interests that aren’t body-related. If he’s going to focus on his body, make his body training focused on something like a sport; weight training for the sake of body modification itself is not healthy at all in my opinion, but if it’s training for something, then that sport becomes the goal. Train to get better at that rather than train to get a certain look.

Good luck.

Another thing to add @Mossball is of course the hyperfocus and intense interests that autistic people can have.

Do you and DS talk about autism and this hyperfocus?

My advice is to make it clear to your kids that you will love and support them no matter what they are, choose to do or be. You can't influence them one way or another and really it's nothing to do with you, aside from wanting the best for them. I think statistically most neurodiverse people are LBTQ+, it's not a case of people not knowing their own minds.

If they're considering making any biological changes, eg with hormones or surgery then I'd invest in therapy to try to make sure that's a choice they'd be happy with in the long term. If it's more easily reversed stuff dressing differently and pronouns I don't think it's anything to worry about at all. Just an adjustment for you all, which might change in the future or not.

Social transitioning isn't neutral. Read the interim Cass report commissioned by the government.

I think statistically most neurodiverse people are LBTQ+

On what are you basing this quite startling assertion?

I think this is quite well known within neurodiverse communities, which is probably where I've heard about it. This article includes some stats and studies.
www.pridecentervt.org/2021/12/22/neurodivergence-in-the-lgbtq-community/

If I remember right it says only half of autistic afab people (in one study of 250 people) reported being cisgender and 70% in another study weren't heterosexual. Oh and because they're women or seen as women, they're infantilised, they aren't listened to or believed. They find it much harder to get medical professionals to diagnose them or see their issues as serious and it's widely acknowledged that women are massively under diagnosed as autistic and ADHD(ADD/inattentive especially). More or less just left to suffer.

All this debate here about trans women, I'm finding it quite interesting now... what do people think of trans men, out of interest? I know it's not the same as trans women, given that men haven't had the historical (and continuing) oppression which women experience, but still. Are trans men generally OK with all types of feminists, I wonder?

Thanks for the article link.

It claims: 'A 2018 study found that almost 70% of people with autism identify as “non-heterosexual” (1)'

but unfortunately the footnote referenced doesn't go anywhere, so I can't see what it was basing that assertion on.

The next footnote which claims that 'A 2020 study of 247 women with autism found that only half of them reported being cisgender and only 8% of them reported being exclusively heterosexual'

seems to eventually go to this study, which is unfortunately paywalled.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10803-020-04565-6

It is a tiny sample, in any case.

The trouble is that some of these words - 'cisgender' and 'gender diverse' for example - are just so damn vague they are virtually meaningless.

If 'gender' and 'sex' are conflated or confused then what does 'non-heterosexual' even actually mean?

If I remember right it says only half of autistic afab people (in one study of 250 people) reported being cisgender and 70% in another study weren't heterosexual

Age ranges covered by study?

"AFAB" only makes sense as a term when referring to babies born with ambiguous anatomy, who were literally "assigned" by staff.

These days, any baby born with ambiguous genitalia would be genetically tested to determine his or her sex for certain.

Trans people unhappy with their sex did not have it "assigned". They had it observed. That's how come you are even able to call random women in studies "AFABs" without having to ask them, "excuse me, what did the midwife say your sex was?"

Compare names. Our names are genuinely assigned to us at birth, which is why we have to ask each other what our names are: you can't recognise a Matt from across the street by the way he walks!

All this debate here about trans women, I'm finding it quite interesting now... what do people think of trans men, out of interest?

Have you come across the idea of social contagion being a factor? The number of adolescent girls seeking gender care has gone up massively over the last few years.

Cisgender means that you're the same gender that the genitalia you were born with indicates, I suppose. I assume it must stand for something more impressive than my explanation.

Gender diverse I'd guess is a person having gender which is different to cisgender, but could also be non binary not just trans etc.

There seem to be an awful lot of different genders and sexualities being proposed... This for me is one of the most ridiculous parts of the whole debate. A lot of those will never stick, along with the pronoun options.

I'd guess non-heterosexual in that context would mean that the transperson wasn't attracted to the opposite gender? So someone with female genitals at birth would be attracted to women or non binaries... But I'm not certain... and I see your point!

No I don't think I have, but do you think social contagion is a factor in how many people are gay or bi now, too? Or do you think that the gay/bi people are just able to express themselves more freely in our culture?

I think it's probably much the same. It did concern me to read a personal account of a young person who had surgery or hormone treatment and then regretted it as they felt their original gender was correct. I think anything like that with negative long term consequences should be strictly monitored, and this is such a new issue. I wouldn't be surprised if there were kids wanting to be trendy etc (in fact I've seen this with gender experimentation in my own experience of kids), but I think it's more likely that kids are often just changeable. Everyone goes through identity phases and surely some will move out of that phase at some point and regret it. Hopefully the medical community gets better at recognising one group from the other before any lasting changes are made.

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision I'd guess that trans people have some kind of brain difference or maybe hormonal difference, but definitely a biological difference to account for why they don't feel attached to their bodily gender and therefore feel awful. Maybe in the future this could be fixed, so that their mind and body agree without changing the body. That has to be seen as a last resort, but I'd say the same for cosmetic surgery too. How many women get breast implants, fillers etc to make themselves more comfortable with their bodies?

Artificial intelligence has become advanced in a short time. We even have the capability to add robot parts to the human brain and body, so I think we have to acknowledge that what we understand about being human isn't what it used to be.

I think you feel that sex and gender are intrinsically linked because you live that reality - it is for you, but trans people don't because they don't live that reality - it isn't for them. However, whether the inner experience of a transwoman is the same as a ciswoman... I doubt it. However, I'm almost certain that my inner experience of being a woman (not being very feminine) is vastly different to that of most women. I don't think it matters much as we're all individuals anyway.

Most of the arguments against trans people seem to be based on cis women being disadvantaged or hurt, which is understandable IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if there were people doing it for the wrong reasons, there are always bad eggs.

"I think you feel that sex and gender are intrinsically linked because you live that reality - it is for you, but trans people don't because they don't live that reality - it isn't for them.*"
*
I have to say it's quite the opposite. Sex and gender aren't linked in the slightest. Sex is a biological fact and Gender is a social construct. There are no gendered traits or personality. It's actually trans ideology that reduces womanhood down to aesthetics, it's superficial and we should be teaching children they can dress, behave and enjoy whatever they like but sex is immutable.

Biological sex isn't a feeling. Trans culture promotes unhealthy stereotypes whilst claiming to rail against them/ be oppressed by them.

A LGBT organisation selects a number of their neurodiverse clients to take a survey which means it is not going to be representative of the general population.

I help to run a large autistic women's organisation and the majority of both men and women are happy identifying with their birth sex. There are some trans and NB people but they are in the minority.

Personally I’d find him a therapist (a normal one rather than woke one). Also build on his interests to build confidence, skill and engagement in things that will bring him joy and meaning in his life. Getting a small part time job could be a start

what are his hobbies and interests?

@hennylovespens Well this is getting ever more confusing for me! So would you say that you have no problem with trans people as long as they agree that they always remain the sex they were born with? So they could be male sex but female gender if they transitioned and vice versa?

I agree with what you said about women or men being however they want, without having to worry about it being correct for their gender, sex or whatever. It always infuriated me to be made to wear girly clothes or have supposedly feminine hobbies or interests, or worse, that I shouldn't have 'male' interests - that's not for girls. Or later 'oh, you don't look girly, you must be a lesbian, and if you say no you must be a repressed lesbian'. Maybe when all that rubbish stops then less people will become trans and just be ok being a bit different, but maybe it's a related issue where people are essentially telling other people what they should do, be, feel, etc?

@NeuroWasabi
I'd guess that trans people have some kind of brain difference or maybe hormonal difference, but definitely a biological difference to account for why they don't feel attached to their bodily gender and therefore feel awful.
No (unlike homosexuality); no; & “trans” now doesn’t [have to] involve any kind of dysphoria - that’s what the push for demedicalisation is about. Indeed, trans people who try to insist that you must have gender dsyphoria to be trans are referred to as “TruScum” & vilified as “gatekeepers”. Our sex is coded into our every cell - even retinas can be differentiated by sex (& AI will correctly sex trans people’s retinal scans).

I would very strongly suggest you read the “Break It Down For Me” thread - yes, at 37 pages it’s long, but it is a good way to bring yourself up to speed. Huge amounts of nonsense identifying as science has been published &/or seeped into the collective consciousness over the last decade or so; being influenced by that; the media; & experiences/knowledge of old-fashioned transsexuals - plus, crucially, female socialisation - makes women inclined to Be Kind. In fact, there’s absolutely no reason we should Be Kind just because our oppressors have popped on a frock while leveraging their political power.

Trans people in the UK are not an oppressed minority. They are not at risk of violence - they’re more likely to murder someone than be murdered. Campaigners [ab]use statistics from Brazil (which relate to the country’s staggeringly high murder rate of people working as prostitutes) to try to give the appearance trans people in the UK are under threat; and they tell young people (& their families) over & over again that they are near-universally hated & [attempted] suicide is so common amongst their peers as to be normal for “trans” children. There is a trend amongst trans people to claim taking cross-sex hormones literally changes their sex; some claim to be “intersex” when they do not have any kind of VSD; & there is an absolute refusal to accept the proof that trans women do not belong in female sports. Males are being moved into female prisons by claiming they “feel” female - including rapists, who unsurprisingly go on to [attempt to] rape again. Males being granted permission to use female toilets & changing rooms has increased voyeurism & sexual assaults - & the ones we know about are despite a deliberate & concerted attempt to prevent the collection of this evidence. Trans Activists will insist there is no evidence of mixed sex facilities putting women at risk - the evidence available is dismissed as “anecdotal”. What’s the sexual assault of a few wee girls when there are middle aged [white] men who need the “validation” of changing clothing/showering/bathing/excreting next to women & girls [who do not consent]?

(On reflection, if you are unclear as to the significance of the document hyperlinked at “power”, this Spectator article provides context.)

I think you feel that sex and gender are intrinsically linked because you live that reality - it is for you, but trans people don't because they don't live that reality - it isn't for them.

Why have you decided that?

My reality is that I have no gender; it doesn't exist for me and I am simply and only myself.

I would talk to them about body changes and being accepting of their body. No one can change sex so they need to understand that all of this going on at the moment is cultural and they are best not trying to define themselves in a way that essentially is a “fashion”.

NeuroWasabi, not sure where you got your reference from, but it doesn’t say what you claim. It reports research into sexualities, focussed on asexuality, among people with ASD. It has absolutely no reference to trans or non-binary identities. The abstract is shown below

‘Existing research suggests that people with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) are more likely than those without ASD to self-identify as asexual, or as being on the asexual spectrum. This study contributes to the literature by exploring aspects of sexuality and well-being in a large, community-based sample of young women (18–30 years old) with ASD ( N  = 247) and comparing the experiences of those with asexual spectrum identities and those with other sexual orientations (e.g., gay, bisexual, heterosexual). In the present sample, asexual participants reported less sexual desire and fewer sexual behaviors than those with other sexual orientations, but greater sexual satisfaction. Being on the asexual spectrum also was associated with lower generalized anxiety symptoms. Clinical and research implications are discussed.”