Former TRA’s what made you change your mind?

[PissedOffAmericanWoman]

I figured it would be interesting to start a thread about why, if you used to be a traditional transgender advocate, why did you stop? I say traditional because it seems the traditional way is by advocating running over women’s sex based rights to “help” trans people. Most of us know that gender critical people do support trans people but it’s just not the way that the media appreciates because we have boundaries and call out trans people who have a problem with women having boundaries. You know the age old tale.

I used to be a very zealous trans rights advocate. There was once a time I would delightfully verbally assault someone for even so much as not commenting on something.

I can’t say there was one single moment that made me realize things weren’t right though. It was more like a gradually collection of little moments that made me change my mind. If you want to here my side of it feel free to read on the next comment. There’s a lot of moments so I’ll make it a separate post.

Never a TRA but certainly felt good, worthy and accepting when parroting “TWAW!”

I am sporty so it was the Olympic regulations around trans women competing against women which made me wake up. So ludicrous that I laughed and couldn’t believe it was true. Peaked in about one minute.

@NoShitHemlock

Funny you say that about your sisters because I have had a very similar response from the friends I have who are mothers to just boys. Friends who have girls ( or girls and boys) seem much more alive to the threats girls face ( based on conversations I have had with them).

My 'mothers of boys' friends are very much in the TWAW camp ( and two of them are health care professionals so I find their stance quite baffling when they deal day in day out with the realities of sexed bodies).

I can only assume their own internalised misogyny from putting their male relatives first in absolutely every situation has hardwired their brains, as the very idea that there should be any type of barrier to their sons doing exactly what they want all the time is anathema. I have gently tried to suggest this is the case and have been laughed out of the room. As you say, I must just "hate men".

If only it were that normal to believe women were able to do whatever they wanted!

Great thread.

For the record, mother of a boy here and I certainly have concerns! This affects us all.

Not all mothers of boys obv but I have also come across quite strong internalised misogyny in women I thought were like minded who are mothers of boys only sorry to say. Emphasising “gender” differences (boys will be boys girls are moody and bitchy). Rape myths “she asked for it” very concerned about false rape allegations , default is that are women lying. This is an extension of it.

The long LGBTQIA+ acronym is a perfect example of the lack of boundaries to their own detriment.

What does this mean @PissedOffAmericanWoman ?

You don’t support intersex, asexuals and aromantic people?

@ItWasDobbinAtTheMareAndSpare

"For the record, mother of a boy here and I certainly have concerns! This affects us all.*"
*
Great to hear. Of course my anecdata isn't comprehensive, but seems to be a noted phenomena among some mothers. Will be interesting as the thread goes along to see if it's something observed by other posters.

I was always very pro trans rights as a teenager (but I feel like this was when there was a far lower % of trans people iyswim, before the big explosion).

For me the turning point was in 2019 reading about that gross Canadian guy suing a bunch of female beauticians who do female waxing for refusing to wax his ballsack. Jessica Yaniv. I was like “wtf, what about the woman’s right not to do that.” When I looked on Twitter and all the support was for Yaniv I was astounded. Some of the women didn’t take male clients for religious reasons. But still it was seen as transphobic.

I remember chatting with my husband - why are trans rights more important than the rights of women and girls? We talked about swimming pool changing rooms. How if male bodied people are allowed in, then some women (eg Muslim women and girls) simply wouldn’t be able to go swimming or take their children swimming anymore. How is that fair? I wouldn’t feel comfortable either. A woman’s changing room is a safe space. I have daughters so I was very stuck on this point.

I still am stuck on this point and I am yet to read a convincing argument for why pre-transition trans women should be allowed in women’s spaces in this way. Same for shop changing rooms, women and girls sports, brownie camps, girls schools, women’s shelters, rape crisis centres etc etc.

I also had an experience in uni when some friends and I simply stopped going to Feminist Society because a trans woman joined and made it ALL about trans. There were also one or two woke cis men on the trans woman’s side. Loved lecturing the women about inclusivity. The annual reading of Vagina Monologues was cancelled. We weren’t allowed to talk about menstrual/female health issues. We weren’t allowed to talk about ANYTHING without the focus being “oh trans women have it worse.” There were many grumblings of “maybe they should have their own separate society then” but no one said anything, and it didn’t peak me. Years later I can see how this was another example of women’s spaces being invaded. I’ll never again get another opportunity like a uni FemSoc to gather with likeminded women. Now wish I could go back in time and give those men a piece of my mind!

The LGB movement was started to fight for equality for same sex attracted people.

The additions to the LGB string do not fall under this category and are connected to ideas around gender and/or kink.

The muddying of the waters around what is being fought for when - as far as I'm concerned- the gender and kink brigade should have a separate lobby is I think what @PissedOffAmericanWoman is talking about.

This is a really interesting thread, @PissedOffAmericanWoman. I've never been TWAW, but I am trying to peak friends, so the stories on here are useful.

I would also add that Intersex people ( of who there are vanishingly few, not that I am dismissing any struggles they have) have repeatedly asked to be left out of these debates.

@YouAreNotBatman
Your post was not addressed to me but can I point out that one way to support people living with a DSD/VSD is not to force the othering and old-fashioned label "intersex" on them.

I was never TRA but had a live and let live, what harm can it do kind of attitude and then a family member transitioned. He was a father of 4 and I saw what that did to his wife and kids. And I lurked here and started reading a bit here and there. I became aware of the issues in sport and work and awards being given to trans women instead of actual women and the situation in female prisons and the more I learned became more and more horrified. Now I'm fully GC and once you see it you can't unsee it.

That’s such a good point, women aren’t just temporarily losing things, but experiences and rights that are irreplaceable. Some women will regroup and find places like these but others will never know what they lost to begin with.

Thanks for your reply @EnglishBloodIrishHeart - it chimes a lot with the points raised in the Chloe Cole interview with Jordan Peterson I've just been listening to.

Something very regressive happened within the culture in the nineties. I'm Gen X, so I was in my 20s then. As a child in the 70s, I played with Action Men as well as dolls, my matchbox car carrier came with me everywhere, clothes were pretty androgynous. In the 80s, I was in my teens, and my first great loves were Adam Ant and Boy George. By late teens, I was into hair metal (!) where the boys generally had long flowing hair and makeup. Then the 90s saw the rise of the Spice Girls, 'girl power' and the ironic/not ironic embrace of uber femininity, lad culture and, as you point out, pink and blue gendered toys and clothes. I was out of step, if you saw pictures of me in my early 20s, I was very GNC, for good reason (csa). Members of my family assumed I was a lesbian. There's no doubt in my mind, I would've been tempted to transition back then. And yet, I became comfortable in my body and happy with being a woman by the time I'd hit my 30s (talking therapy, helped immensely). I'm glad I grew up when I did.

It sounds like you're happy enough with your life choices (that's all any of us can hope for, really) but it also sounds like you have a realistic view on what those choices are - and I wish you the best.

Lesbian Rights: the right to not be discriminated against for being same-sex attracted.

Gay Rights: the right to not be discriminated against for being same-sex attracted.

Bisexual Rights: the right to not be discriminated against for being same sex attracted.

Trans Rights: the right to not be discriminated against for having an ill-defined identity where one’s inner self feels different in ways that can’t be well described but means one wants the rest of the world to perceive them as the opposite sex, and for some, the right to be treated exactly like that opposite sex.

Intersex Rights: the right for a rare group of medical conditions to be treated in certain ways depending on the group you ask.

Asexual/Aromantic Rights: ? As far as I can tell it’s the right not to be asked if they’re seeing anyone at the moment.

So how are the first three grouped together with the latter three?

I'm also Gen X and have many of the same experiences as @RaininginDarling regarding the eras I grew up in.

Something odd happened in the 90s and early 00s. The nineties completely did a number on women with its Lad/ Loaded culture ( look ultra feminine, behave like a man and we will slut shame you should you manage both).

Yes perfectly put @LadyOfTheCanyon

No it’s not that clear cut. Those things exist and there’s nothing wrong with them. It’s just that I don’t believe that every single tiny variant of sexuality necessarily needs to be named in the acronym to be supported. I think they got lost in the fog when they started adding so many that there needed to be a plus. I think the smaller more niche sexualities could be supported without being named. If they grew big enough to make a significant impact later on then they could be added. But at this point it feels a bit like the lgbtq+ is being tricked by reddit trolls, who are just making things up as they go, doesn’t it?

However yes every sexually does not need to be supported. The fact that furies, pedophiles (or as some like to call them MAPS) or trans species were/are ever a serious debate I think is an example of them basically self harming the entire community for the sake of proving some sort of ethical or self righteous purity.

While it’s nice that they cover asexual or aromantic how many people actually consider themselves that? Is it necessary to add that as an acronym?

While I’m technically demisexual as I very much could not date anyone in high school unless we were friends first I do not and have not gone around announcing it nor did i feel the need to come out of the closet and announce that. It’s more of a personal dating preference rather than a sexuality in my opinion. I have never been oppressed for being demi.

It would be like adding a sexuality for people who prefer blondes over red heads, brunettes and dark haired people I think. Do we need to add blondesexual to the list for people who experience this type of dating preference? I mean it IS a type of sexuality is it not? Why are blondesexuals not included? Perhaps because we can’t and shouldn’t add everything?

Also to add to that point when everything becomes an lgbt+ sexuality then everyone is lgbt+ and then eventually no one is lgbt+. On that note who does an lgbt+ charity help and who do they turn away? While a straight asexual might get teased by people who are a bit more relaxed about sex would they be oppressed the same way a gay man or lesbian might be?

What would you do if you found out that they were getting charity over someone who was violently abused and lost their job, home and family for dating someone of the same sex? Are these types of things prioritized?

I’m sorry call me a b!tch if you will but, if we consider asexuality is a true sexuality I don’t really think “I prefer masturbation over mutual sex with my partner” a position that is so strongly rejected by society that I would consider them wildly oppressed enough to require charity over someone is gay, bi or lesbian. Perhaps some therapy at best?

Fascinating thread - thanks!

@Calmblue Your experience of your so-called feminist society at university neatly illustrates one of the main objections that many women have towards the notion that TWAW: men moving into female spaces and lecturing women on how to behave.

I only joined this board last year, after the thread I was reading on Lia Thomas was moved into this section.

Without outing myself, I am watching my teenage sons start to tower over me, while I have had several interviews but no jobs and dread the approaching menopause. I am questioning who I am and where I now fit in the world as an older mum.

To read about someone who changed from boy swimming to girl swimming and then became National Champion was jaw-dropping. Why was this being allowed to happen??? Why was no one complaining??? Why could people not see the obvious physical differences between men and women? Why was one man able to dominate over all these women?

I think I'm a second wave feminist and did Feminist Literature in my final year at Uni (week 1 - The Handmaid's Tale) I believe that women's oppression starts from sex and is reinforced by gender. So to believe TWAW is fundamentally against my thinking. Don't discriminate and harass, just be kind and it'll be OK.

The issues raised on these boards have made me realise it's not all OK.

No idea what kink has to do with my question.
But anyway, asexuality and aromanticism are about sexual / romantic attraction and it doesn’t fall under ’normal’ (don’t take that word the wrong way) so they belong in the LGBTQIA.
And you know, the A is literally there.

They literally hurt no one.

Let's avoid the derailment. (And I'm including myself in that exhortation to keep to the point of the thread.)

I have the opposite experience! The mums of girls go on about the social aspects of it all, whereas the mums of boys are GC. Tiny sample size, anecdotal, obviously...

And thanks @EnglishBloodIrishHeart for braving the nest of vipers to come and give your views- from my limited experience I also think there has been a huge change in what was the LGB community. There has been a mass importing of views from Online America which don't always gel with British culture, history etc.

@EnglishBloodIrishHeart what you describe is my observation from having very close friends having transitioned 25/30 years ago and now as older adults they just want to live in peace. They too (mostly) pass so don’t need the protection of the wider trans community and so can live in peace with only a very few people knowing. They feel the way current activism from grass roots to politicians is going that it puts them in more danger now should they be outed. They don’t want associated with the activists who they feel have brought shame on their once safe and accepted community.

thank you for your articulation- I didn’t feel it was my place to write what you did in relation to my friends but I went and asked if they’d mind me adding their thoughts after I told them what you, a younger person had said.