Former TRA’s what made you change your mind?

[PissedOffAmericanWoman]

I figured it would be interesting to start a thread about why, if you used to be a traditional transgender advocate, why did you stop? I say traditional because it seems the traditional way is by advocating running over women’s sex based rights to “help” trans people. Most of us know that gender critical people do support trans people but it’s just not the way that the media appreciates because we have boundaries and call out trans people who have a problem with women having boundaries. You know the age old tale.

I used to be a very zealous trans rights advocate. There was once a time I would delightfully verbally assault someone for even so much as not commenting on something.

I can’t say there was one single moment that made me realize things weren’t right though. It was more like a gradually collection of little moments that made me change my mind. If you want to here my side of it feel free to read on the next comment. There’s a lot of moments so I’ll make it a separate post.

Can you explain what you mean by the Farms? Also can someone clear up what the acronym FWA means? I googled and got many different results so don’t know which one is which but there’s obviously one that is exclusively used on mumsnet.

The farms is kiwi farms, a controversial website. They archive what people (lolcows) post online and then talk shit about them. They document quite a few trans people, but also people like Trump, Kanye, and Andrew Tate. They are know to use all kinds of racist and homophobic language. It’s not a place for the faint hearted. Read at your own risk.

Oof sounds like a dreaded place to be. Just to be clear… Are you implying that many TRA’s are racist, sexist, homophobic or otherwise? 😳

I was of the TWAW persuasion because I was generally pretty lefty and inclined to be supportive of the oppressed, but hadn't had any exposure to feminist critique about transgender ideology or, I suppose, given it much thought. I knew a transwoman personally and had seen this person suffer sideways looks and snide comments from men and felt that meant we should protect them and welcome them into womanhood.

At the time JKR made the comment in support of Maya Forstater, one of my favourite authors - Richard Morgan - was also being openly GC. I saw him be accused of bigotry and eventually banned from Twitter and it just didn't ring true with what I knew about his politics and beliefs. I looked into it some more and came slap bang up against the cotton ceiling and everything changed for me.

The concept of the Cotten ceiling terrifies me. I also am disturbed by the number of extremely pervy, rapey transpeople. There is a number of them flying under the radar that severely creep me out and I hate that they are ignored because their existence is an inconvenient truth for a lot of people. JK rowling’s letter was taken painfully out of context. I really questioned the way it was quoted out of context but that was in my later days of being heavily liberal when I was questioning. I don’t trust liberal democrats much these days anymore because of their shady dishonest tactics. They think people don’t take notice but they are wrong.

@PissedOffAmericanWoman I’m NOT saying TRAs are racist or homophobic in general. And I don’t think many post on the farms. Several (not TRA) posters on the farms use that kind of language.

The farms is a kind of extreme freedom of speech zone. People there use that language. It need not mean they are sexist and racist etc. it's an equal opportunity offensive place.

It's brutally frank. It also documents the weirdness of other people in the public eye, with no fear of disapproval and no holds barred. I'm sure there are hateful people there, as there are everywhere. There's no softening of disapproval there.

I hate all the abbreviations and the need to constantly google to understand what people are talking about and I won't use them.

For a long time I was pro trans and felt that everyone on the other side were transphobic bigots. Mostly because if the levels of viciousness in discussions. And I still find it very off putting.

But I thought long and hard and overtime I've moved to the other side and now feel great concern as to how entrenched and how quickly the overwriting of women has taken hold in our society.

JKRowling was very influential to me. Because she's not vicious. She makes a sensible and coherent argument.

Sturgeon also influential in turning me because of her use of Scotland's one party state to rush through legislation without proper democratic scrutiny.

It was Clare Dimyon for me. Up until then, I'd been totally sympathetic. That matter made me realise the full implications of believing TWAW and that if I were to continue thinking that, I would also have to accept that rape victims who requested biological females to carry out medical procedures were indeed transphobic bigots. I was horrified by the total dismissal of the trauma of victims in favour of the validation of the feelings of transpeople.

At that point, I hopped into my shiny little car and drove through the gates into Terf Town.

I was supportive initially. Perhaps not a TRA but not involved in any other way.

Sport, the needs of women of faith and what was happening to lesbians changed my mind.

Then I learned more - I follow people from all sides of the spectrum and I'm not and never will be convinced by gender ideology

@StansRealityStruggle

LOVE your username!

I was never a TRA, but of the general 'what's the harm?' variety not really paying attention.

What made me wake up and take notice was few years ago I read about Barbie Kardashian (obviously not the blokes real name) who sexually attacked women, in a newspaper article and nowhere did it indicate it was a man. I remember being shocked that a woman would do that that's why I remembered it.
Only later did I find out it's actually a man, who is now in a women's prison even though he is a clear danger to women.

Then I went down the rabbit hole on FWR and realised Self ID is already the law here in Ireland, brought in by stealth - I couldn't believe we had never had a public debate about it, and our government and media don't seem to care.

Yup. All so familiar @StansRealityStruggle - welcome to Terf Town, Population: you (and everybody who bothers to educate themselves).

I was a supporter back in the day, typical Liberal London media type - then I read the BACP's definition of a woman (Guess what? It wasn't adult human female and involved a slightly insulting word salad about Northerners). The NSPCC rubber wank man really pushed me over the edge. I've been reading up and...mountaineering... ever since.

Honestly, for me, it’s just been getting older, wiser and being a mother. I know we fetishize the opinions of youth but when I was younger, with less experience I thought ‘why wouldn’t we be kind?’ I wouldn’t have understood what feminists had really fought for, the history and how much of it is still so recent.

I swallowed the whole vulnerable, born in the wrong body bit before I fully understood what my female biology was going to mean to me. Before I had debilitating gynae issues, before childbearing slowed my career down, before I was sexually assaulted, before I knew how many of my friends had been assaulted. Before I paid attention to VAWG.

Growing up and understanding that other women are more impacted than me in having to share spaces that should be single sex - that women in prison (usually because of men in some way) need us to help them. Sexual abuse survivors, the elderly, the disabled, certain religions - when you take women’s spaces you take their ability in some cases to participate in public life, or, to excel in it.There but before the grace of (insert deity of choice) go I, basically.

i come from a very different perspective

But I hope you don’t mind me sharing.

It’ll be a long read, but I hope it may be of interest to some of you.

I myself am trans (female to male), although I don’t feel the need to ‘identify’ as trans. It’s something I had to go through to get to where I am, it’s not who I am.

So, naturally, initially I advocated for ‘my’ community and felt very strongly that trans women were women and trans men were men, because I wanted to be excepted in my acquired gender so it felt hypocritical to not believe the same of others.

But this was 2007, and the vast majority of trans people back then were older people who had lived vast amounts of their life in their birth gender, had often married, had kids etc and had a much fuller understanding of the biological differences between the sexes. Most just wanted to live a quiet comfortable life in their preferred gender, and if they had surgery at all they did so quietly, and fully understood that it was a cosmetic procedure and that there are some things you simply cannot recreate.

I was very young.

I was rejected by my family and a lot of friends, some because they disagreed with my choices (and they WERE choices)

Others because they simply didn’t know anything about trans people and in some cases didn’t know or believe transition possible.

That was their view, and as hurt as I was, I just moved on with living my life.

i ‘passed’ very well,

I turned to the trans community for support, and friendship. But for the most part, was rejected,

Others didn’t like that I passed more than they did

or that I was much younger and had much more of my life ahead of me

That I was likely young and fit enough for surgery, when they weren’t.

Over the next few years I just got on with my life, and perused hormones and surgery. I lived as a male and only felt the need to tell people I was trans if they medically needed to know, or I was entering in to a close relationship/friendship with someone.

Some accepted me, others didn’t and that was that.

I no longer felt comfortable using female facilities, I looked too male, and in any case didn’t feel I belonged.

So I used the male or disabled facilities (this was easier to do because I am also disabled)

If I used any male facilities I went in, did my business and left.

In a few places, like college. I was told some of the make staff didn’t feel comfortable with the idea of me using male facilities but I was welcome to use the disabled or female ones.

I accepted that.

If I joined any ‘male’ groups I let them know I was trans and they either permitted me or they didn’t.

Then I started to notice a shift within the trans community.

I saw more people making their transgender identity their WHOLE identity.

It went from helpful videos online from other trans people talking about their experiences of hormones or surgery etc

To videos of people relating every aspect of their life to being trans

Asking the public to fund surgery because they didn’t want to wait or pay themselves. (I understand the waiting lists are years long now but they weren’t at the time)

I saw people claiming all of the psychological assessments weren’t necessary

Saying parents must accept their 5 year old saying they were trans

That schools must accept and accommodate

That young boys should be allowed to changed in the girls changing rooms at school or the local leisure centre

I saw a demand to be allowed everywhere

To be allowed in to the facilities that matched birth sex
But also in to facilities that matched the acquired genders

I saw a change from people just trying to be viewed as whichever gender, by wearing normal clothing, makeup etc

To flaunting and wearing provocative clothing and calling everyone transphobic if they said it wasn’t appropriate.

I saw a demand of ‘equality’ that wasn’t asking for equality

It was acting for special treatment

I saw women’s rights being eroded in the name of equality

Of human rights
Of inclusivity.

And all the while, I saw trans people EXCLUDING others. Saying they only felt safe in trans spaces

Only felt comfortable around trans friends

Yet screaming transphobia if a non trans person said they didn’t feel comfortable around them.

I saw the introduction of who knows how many new pronouns and genders and sexualities

I saw trans women buying sanitary products for absolutely no reason other than to ‘look the part’

Trans women demanding to be acknowledged
as legal mothers
And as some of you have said, taking offence when actual mothers talk about being child/pregnancy/breastfeeding because it’s ‘insensitive’

I will never produce semen, I will never ‘father’ a child. I don’t see how that makes it insensitive for male friends to talk about their children or sex lives because I recognise that the world does not revolve around my choices.

I would still very much like to advocate for trans people like myself, who just want to feel comfortable in their own skin.

But sadly, our voices have been drowned out by loud voices screaming inclusion whilst they continue to exclude anyone who doesn’t share their view.

Thank you for your comment, EnglishBloodIrishHeart, you sound very down to earth and I wish you well.

I can definitely agree with this shift:

I saw more people making their transgender identity their WHOLE identity.

It went from helpful videos online from other trans people talking about their experiences of hormones or surgery etc

To videos of people relating every aspect of their life to being trans

Thanks for sharing your experience @EnglishBloodIrishHeart - as already said, you sound very grounded and thoughtful. One of the things I find most troubling is the expectation for gnc women to transition now, and I wondered what you felt about that.

@EnglishBloodIrishHeart I really appreciate your unique perspective as a transgender/transsexual person. I agree with absolutely everything you said and feel you have given words to many abstract feelings I have had trouble forming into words! I can imagine how it must feel very lonely at a time like this when like minded people who have a trans experience and a nuanced perspective are drowned out and ran out. In that sense I feel like trans people’s spaces are being invaded by bad performers with ulterior motives. Trans should not be synonymous with any life view, creed or political perspective. That isn’t fair out right.

@EnglishBloodIrishHeart I have nothing to say as the only way to express my feelings to your comment is to share this meme.

i was very pro, then initially shocked about the incident at speakers corner. Then read about individual acts of violence and hateful speech towards females, which only served to highlight the need for single sex spaces. One day it dawned on me that all the trans people I knew were autistic and vulnerable, struggling to fit in. I felt compassionate towards individuals but safeguarding concerns weighed heavily. Tavistock clinic set off alarm bells, limited number of appointments and then prescribed life changing drugs, whilst failing to assess neurodivergence, offering long term counselling or measuring outcomes. The stream of staff leaving Tavistock said it all.

I hadn't ever really come across any transwomen or transmen. I thought drag was funny and men who wore dresses were so brave. It didn't affect me - no bloke dressed as a woman had ever attempted to invade my space and I never felt threatened in a mixed sex toilet (although I got in and out as quickly as I could). I was a fucking idiot.

DD (who hadn't yet been diagnosed with ASD and ADHD) was about 12 or 13 and had just told me that she thought she liked girls instead of boys. I was so pleased that she knew she could tell me and I just wanted to see if there was anything I help her with on the internet (resources for young teenagers etc). I came across an article that has already been mentioned upthread about transwomen identifying as lesbians and insisting that actual lesbians should sleep with them and I was horrified. I read a bit more and had a chat with a woman who is a lesbian that I am friends with and told her about the article. Her response was that I should "get of the bloody internet".

But I didn't. I kept reading. I was already a member of Mumsnet but now I started taking more notice of the FWR threads and everything that was happening regards safeguarding. The transwomen in womens sports. Then Girl Guiding. And then and then and then - the list just kept growing. By now I was firmly in GC territory and willing to talk to just about anyone who would listen.

And then I spoke to my sisters. All 3 of them have boys (so not the same worries as having a female child), none of them have ever known anyone who is trans. All of them are firmly TWAW. I was dumbfounded. Did they not realise the possible implications for girls? Did they not care? Apparently I just "hate men" and I should let people get on with their own lives. Well fuck that for a game of marbles.

And now we fall out regularly because all I see is misogyny. All I see are risks to my autistic daughter (who for about 5 minutes decided she wanted to be a boy because she didnt feel like a girl - it didn't last long as she is fairly sensible). And I can't unsee it. I can't go back to "live and let live" because I worry for her all the time. She is choosing her university options soon and wants to live away from home so I am trying to prepare her as best I can (how to use a washing machine, how to budget etc etc) but how can I prepare her for the handmaids? All she wants to do is be kind to people and make friends. And all I can see is the trans cult coming for her because she is an easy target.

Sorry - this was a full info dump. I don't usually post on these boards because I don't often feel I have much to say that someone much more eloquent can say. I just want anyone who is fence sitting (and manages to wade through this!) to know that just because it doesn't affect you directly it doesn't mean it won't affect those who you know and love.

Then jkr, dodgy Green Party safeguarding, Labour expelling feminist women, back boneless Keir, then Kira bell, maya and other recent court cases highlighting the strangeness that is stonewall.

@RaininginDarling My honest view is that this is where the biggest issue lies.

I grew up in the 90s where toy stores had a bright pink aisle of ‘girls’ toys and a blue/darker packaged aisle of ‘boys’ toys.
i was in to football, cars and action man, hated dolls and barbies. I wore jeans and trainers and hoodies and fought every attempt to get me in to anything femanine.

i have very stereotypical parents who I was constantly at war with other clothing and toys and why I couldn’t run around with all the boys.

But I was also going through a lot of trauma, bullying and some SA.

When I found the definition of trans, I thought all of my feelings had been answered.

BUT although on the whole I’m happier now than I was then, and I don’t regret my choices
As I’ve grown older I realise that my transition was a response to those issues.
Had I had parents who allowed me to be me and didn’t equate interests or clothing with gender I feel I may well have been able to work through my issues in therapy and not transitioned.

Nowadays it seems someone ku has to show the slightest hint of being GNC and they’re given hormone blockers and told they are trans, or NB. It’s frightening, because it feeds back in to dangerous stereotypes.

I think a high proportion of those now transitioning are neurodiverse, disabled, have experiences abuse of some kind and they’re turning to transition as the solution to their problems, as a way to fit in etc

i think JKR explained it perfectly in her essay

I wasn’t a full on activist but very much supported trans rights and be kind until I saw the expanding stonewall umbrella and they weren’t just talking about dysphoric transsexuals of whom I know many. When the cross dressers and fetishists were being allowed to force us to call them women and allowed to access single sex spaces (whether by law or by well meaning organisations not quite getting the law). Then the more I saw and read the more I realised this was nothing to do with body or gender dysphoria and everything to do with control of women.

@EnglishBloodIrishHeart

Thank you for such an interesting and thoughtful post. I wish you well and hope you continue to feel comfortable and at one with your identity.