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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Upsetting story from Glinner re. misgendering by a disabled woman

40 replies

HootyMcboob76 · 06/01/2023 16:06

As a follower of Glinner, his recent email details a TW angry at a woman with Down Syndrome who is "misgendering" them. I'm not sure this link will work

substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5900345c-83e1-44c8-b726-c121b6c05770_720x1285.jpeg?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

The comments left by the TW supporters are just awful.
I really feel for people who cannot play along with this nonsense, be they disabled for whatever reason or autistic, on the spectrum etc.
They see the reality before their eyes and are being coerced and bullied into denying it.

Sickening.

OP posts:
HootyMcboob76 · 06/01/2023 16:08

There are also photos of "valerie" accompanying the article.
Let's just say the lady correctly identified this persons sex.

OP posts:
MagpiePi · 06/01/2023 16:10

I’ve just seen this too, and am appalled.

MagpiePi · 06/01/2023 16:13

The sense of entitlement of some people is just staggering.

iklboo · 06/01/2023 16:13

This reply has been deleted

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ScrollingLeaves · 06/01/2023 21:08

The transwoman does not like being reacted to by the woman with Down’s as though the transwoman is something monstrous, yet is happy to refer to her in unnecessarily abusive language which suggests she is more animal than human.

The person with Down’s Syndrome is simply seeing the truth.

Her distress about a transwoman using the ladies’s and trying to point, must mean there is an alternative the transwoman could be using. What about the woman’s need to feel safe and private? Under the Equality Act she has a right to this through both the protected characteristic of ‘sex’ (which allows for lavatories to be sex segregated spaces) and of disability I should think.

This is why the Equality Act needs updating to make clear that sex means biological sex.

Delphinium20 · 06/01/2023 21:53

I find this utterly appalling. Thinking adults, even those who aren't particularly understanding of people with disabilities, know that you don't expect people with Down's syndrome to automatically behave/react the same as other adults. Most of us give them grace and understanding. Shame on those men.

OneMorePlant · 06/01/2023 23:00

Every time I think it can't get any worse it does. They showed no sympathy what so ever for this woman with Downs. How can you say such vile things and still think you are right here?

beastlyslumber · 06/01/2023 23:56

This is very upsetting. The young woman with Downs is brave and honest. She's also very vulnerable and deserves protection .

IcakethereforeIam · 07/01/2023 00:06

Am I alone in thinking that when something like this happens to some transpeople it's like all their Christmases have come at once. Some will be genuinely (and perhaps rightfully) devastated. But others can take their victimisation (the most vulnerable/marginalised/oppressed) get their validation from their community and weaponise it.

Perhaps this tw has stuff going on and it's short circuited their empathy. Perhaps befriending their co-worker, instead of monstering them, is beyond them for some reason. Perhaps they're damaged and deserve sympathy. Perhaps they're not just a twatHmm

Wonder if this will be deleted?

HootyMcboob76 · 07/01/2023 01:05

IcakethereforeIam · 07/01/2023 00:06

Am I alone in thinking that when something like this happens to some transpeople it's like all their Christmases have come at once. Some will be genuinely (and perhaps rightfully) devastated. But others can take their victimisation (the most vulnerable/marginalised/oppressed) get their validation from their community and weaponise it.

Perhaps this tw has stuff going on and it's short circuited their empathy. Perhaps befriending their co-worker, instead of monstering them, is beyond them for some reason. Perhaps they're damaged and deserve sympathy. Perhaps they're not just a twatHmm

Wonder if this will be deleted?

I wondered myself if this thread will be deleted, but everything I've posted is freely available on the internet for anyone who wishes to see it. The TW themselves posted this and sent it out into the world.
Actually I think I've been rather restrained and didn't post the accompanying photos of the TW in question, (even though they posted them themselves) as it would definitely invite comments about their very clear biological sex.

I think this situation is like trying to tell a very young child something untrue. They will just refuse to comply with it, state it loudly that they disagree, even when the parent is frantically whispering and shushing and cajoling them to not stare, to keep their voice down, to comply.
Children, and I think some disabled people or people with certain conditions, are just going to be incapable of NOT seeing the truth.

And it does not make them "terfs, bigots, malicious, a horrible person" according to the TW and their fans.
It makes them human.
"From the mouths of babes", as the expression says.
The honest innocence of children and child like people, who will scream that the Emperor has no clothes on.

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 07/01/2023 01:23

OP I think this is a reasonable subject for a thread, you have been fair imo. As you say neither you nor Glinner put it out in the world.

I'm prepared to imagine a scenario that excuses the tw, but not one for all of their nasty commentors. And my sympathy rests firmly with the individual with Down's syndrome.

dropthevipers · 07/01/2023 02:06

OneMorePlant · 06/01/2023 23:00

Every time I think it can't get any worse it does. They showed no sympathy what so ever for this woman with Downs. How can you say such vile things and still think you are right here?

Because "no debate" and "acceptance without exception " means just that. Though we seem to be hearing less of that stance lately.

CharlotteRose90 · 07/01/2023 02:12

This reply has been deleted

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NitroNine · 07/01/2023 06:31

From the language used I think they’re in the US @ScrollingLeaves; & as the commenters suggest, companies will bend over backwards for trans employees. (Unless it suits them to argue that trans people are at risk of losing their jobs just for being trans [& that is why a disproportionate number of TW “do sex work”] of course.)

The ADA, of course, guarantees the lady who works as a courtesy clerk, protections under the law. No legal rights for women as a sex class in the US though.

Depending on where in the US they are, the individual complaining may not legally be allowed to use the women’s toilets. OSHA, being subject to institutional capture, merrily slides round that fact; cheerily bringing up the shameful misappropriation of Title IX by the trans lobby.

That disingenuous wail of “what can I dooooooo?” is frankly shameful. How “lucky” this individual has a supply of people ready & willing to support their ableism; & tell them that a perfectly reasonable response is to destroy the life of a woman who actually will (despite the ADA) struggle to find alternative employment. Ugh.

Imagine repeatedly & deliberately causing a woman with a developmental disability (& statistically, quite likely cardiac issues) such acute distress. The level of self-absorption required for such selfishness is staggering even to contemplate.

ScrollingLeaves · 07/01/2023 14:00

Imagine repeatedly & deliberately causing a woman with a developmental disability (& statistically, quite likely cardiac issues) such acute distress. The level of self-absorption required for such selfishness is staggering even to contemplate.

Quite.

The other thing I think is striking in this story is that, for all the woman has limited language, far from being confused, she completely and viscerally knows the truth - that this is not a woman but a man.

I think in many ways a child, or an animal like a dog or horse might be the same. And it really is the truth, not some mistake made by ‘limited’ minds.

It is an outrage to have these legal falsehoods take precedence over a truth which is fundamentally important to existence.

ZestFest · 07/01/2023 14:01

I saw this on Twitter and could have wept. Just awful.

NitroNine · 08/01/2023 01:56

The lady’s age isn’t mentioned, but it’s quite possible that she did not receive the SALT & audiology input she required when she was younger. Even if her parents had insurance they may not have covered what was required; & if they changed insurers, or were previously uninsured & got insurance after her birth, it’s possible their daughter would’ve been denied coverage for her “pre-existing condition”. Dental care is often a separate plan & frequently very expensive. It is possible that the lady may thus not have had braces - or, alternatively, if she did have them, she had them at the “usual” time, which harms language development in children with Down’s Syndrome.

The lady’s speech being indistinct has no reflection on her ability to correctly sex other members of her species; nor, clearly, to understand rules about how one behaves in public. People with intellectual disabilities are seven times more likely to be sexually assaulted than people who are not disabled, so this woman has, rightly, been taught male people are not allowed into the women’s toilets. It’s a rule.

The male complainant has spent no time trying to get to know the woman so the male complainant does not understand her speech. I have no doubt but that she has colleagues & even customers who do understand her, even if it has taken time & it is with difficulty. No decent person describes the speech of another as “grunts” like this - it’s a deliberate attempt to dehumanise a disabled woman.

By their own logic, all those people advocating for reporting the woman [& getting her fired] are Nazis. Who did the Nazis kill first? Who did they justify the killing of in children’s textbooks? Their own rules & rhetoric make the lot of them Nazis jackbooting all over the rights of the disabled - more specifically, disabled women - but never will they see that. Because Reasons.

Women with T21 are less likely to have an IQ under 20 & more likely to have one higher than 70. Most people with Down’s Syndrome have only a mild-moderate cognitive delay; & while some are more severely impacted, some are of average intelligence. Conflating communication difficulties with intelligence is an error that causes harm to an already disadvantaged population.

”Tell me I’m not punching down by lashing out at a disabled woman I am depicting as seriously cognitively delayed & barely able to communicate with others!” cries the trans woman seeking to colonise a female space. “Of course you’re not! She is an evil transphobe & must be destroyed! You are stunning & this is brave.” chorus the enablers obligingly, obediently - or simply in exchange for similar reassurance. They are “the right side of history” & their tanks will roll over any & all opposition to the colonisation of womanhood while mere females are to stand back and “enjoy your erasure”.

But sadly for them: Vive la Resistance! In all its many & varied forms, including a courtesy clerk with Down’s Syndrome who isn’t afraid to tell a male individual that the ladies’ loos are for female people.

ApocalipstickNow · 08/01/2023 07:46

Another thing I have learned since so much of this became more public is not only are people genuinely not interested in women or children’s rights or lives but many, many people still despise people with disabilities simply because they have disabilities.

nilsmousehammer · 08/01/2023 08:12

It is important every single time you have to mention the women and girls harmed and excluded in women's spaces to permit men freedom of self expression that you cover all the groups. Often the only one mentioned is women of faith/other cultures, which immediately gets the racist/belief intolerant and stone hearted compassionless snarl of 'women should not follow that faith because it is incompatible with her servicing my needs and should abandon belief, family, culture, friends on the spot' (and join my faith of atheism).

Spot the conversion therapy.

It includes Disabled women and girls. Including this poor woman. Including women with Autism. (Many Autistic MNetters have spoken on this) women with dementia, women who cannot lie and nurture the feelings of a man above their own perceptions and communication.

And you see the immediate ableist, stone hearted, compassionless and hatefilled snarl towards them too.

There is nothing 'kind' about this kind of wholly unacceptable, prejudiced and cruel behaviour to others while demanding (frequently with threats and swearing) that extreme end standards and extreme high efforts of kindness, inclusive beliefs and tolerance are served to those exhibiting it.

Spot the male violence guys. Spot the abusive behaviour. It's less equality act than Lundy Bancroft's area of expertise. It has no place in women's spaces and the first duty of women's spaces are to be accessible to all women.

Then we can worry about what men may like as additional variant spaces for their inclusion needs in addition.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/01/2023 09:21

nilsmousehammer · Today 08:12
It is important every single time you have to mention the women and girls harmed and excluded in women's spaces to permit men freedom of self expression that you cover all the groups. Often the only one mentioned is women of faith/other cultures, which immediately gets the racist/belief intolerant and stone hearted compassionless snarl of 'women should not follow that faith because it is incompatible with her servicing my needs and should abandon belief, family, culture, friends on the spot' (and join my faith of atheism).

Spot the conversion therapy.

It includes Disabled women and girls. Including this poor woman. Including women with Autism. (Many Autistic MNetters have spoken on this) women with dementia, women who cannot lie and nurture the feelings of a man above their own perceptions and communication.

And you see the immediate ableist, stone hearted, compassionless and hatefilled snarl towards them too.

There is nothing 'kind' about this kind of wholly unacceptable, prejudiced and cruel behaviour to others while demanding (frequently with threats and swearing) that extreme end standards and extreme high efforts of kindness, inclusive beliefs and tolerance are served to those exhibiting it.

Spot the male violence guys. Spot the abusive behaviour. It's less equality act than Lundy Bancroft's area of expertise. It has no place in women's spaces and the first duty of women's spaces are to be accessible to all women.

Then we can worry about what men may like as additional variant spaces for their inclusion needs in addition.

Thank you, you have put that so well.

IcakethereforeIam · 08/01/2023 11:53

I was thinking about this last night. If one of my friends came out with something like this, I would support them (they're my friend) but I wouldn't support their position. If I were friends with the tw, I might agree with them using the ladies Confused, but I'd encourage a bit of empathy around their colleague. I wouldn't cheerlead them on this nasty path. What true friend would?

Florissant · 08/01/2023 12:09

That poor woman. Glinner's article is just another illustration of how "Be kind" works in one direction only.

EasterIsland · 09/01/2023 12:53

Good Lord! The ablesim and entitlement are disgusting.

And I fear that the woman with Downs Syndrome will be sacked, because I don't think the US has the equivalent of our Equalities Act.

bellinisurge · 09/01/2023 13:48

Proper Maoist shit. I hope the wanker who said this is haunted by what they have become.

ApocalipstickNow · 09/01/2023 13:55

It’s almost as if there’s a whole bunch of bully hanger ons who have been waiting for an opportunity to be racist, ableist, misogynistic, homophobic, anti different faiths etc and have gleefully leaped onto social media to give air to their views h the second something came along that would provide them with cover.

sorry, not almost, exactly.