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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fresh horrors for Scotland

160 replies

HirplesWithHaggis · 04/01/2023 22:58

wingsoverscotland.com/raise-all-of-the-flags/#more-134015

"Gender expression, of course, is simply how a person presents themselves in terms of dress and general appearance. So under this law, if your 13-year-old son is meeting some friends for a movie and comes down the stairs wearing only a nappy, a ball gag and an adult bib with “CUM SLUT” printed on it, and you say “You’re not bloody going out dressed like that!”, you’ll be committing a crime for which he can have you arrested as long as he claims it’s part of his gender expression."

There's more, so much more.
😥

OP posts:
nilsmousehammer · 05/01/2023 17:22

HirplesWithHaggis · 05/01/2023 17:16

They describe conversion therapy in terms of water boarding, lobotomy etc, and of course those are horrific. But the devil is in the detail, as ever.

Which was why it was thrown into the long grass by Westminster.

It was made very clear to them that the TQ+ political juggernaut saw this simply as an opportunity to control, criminalise and dominate everyone and everything.

onyttig · 05/01/2023 17:27

HirplesWithHaggis · 05/01/2023 17:16

They describe conversion therapy in terms of water boarding, lobotomy etc, and of course those are horrific. But the devil is in the detail, as ever.

there is no need for a new law to prevent waterboarding and all the clearly not allowed under various laws things they’ve thrown in to make it hard to challenge the everyday family interactions they want to police.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 17:35

JustMerkinYourChain · 05/01/2023 16:29

Simply put - is this to outlaw counselling for children / people saying they’re trans? If not, what is it outlawing?

It's outlawing anything that the correct people wish to see outlawed.

No point looking for specifics or detail. The whole point is that it remain vague enough to be useful as 1. a punishment and 2. a deterrent.

OP posts:
Chocchops72 · 05/01/2023 19:17

Kokeshi123 · 05/01/2023 01:57

I don't get why this shit keeps happening in Scotland. Historically, it's always been such a grounded, skeptical country, where most people have limited patience with bullshit.

Is it about the desire of the SNP to constantly be as McDifferent as possible - like, Westminster is moving against the TRA/Stonewall line, so we in Scotland need to double down and push the TRA/Stonewall line as aggressively as possible, just to show that we don't like Westminster?

I have a feeling most actual Scots are pretty dismayed by all this. Why can't Labour see the light on this issue, and take advantage of this to engineer a comeback in Scotland.

I read somewhere (might have been here) that countries that have a history of being particularly conservative tend to swing too far in the opposite direction when the brakes are taken off. A bit like Ireland. Also a bit like when a formerly meek person starts to develop their self-assertiveness and goes over the top into outright aggression.. before correcting back to a more

The Scotland that I grew up in (50 yrs old now) was deeply conservative, suspicious of difference and yes racist, homophobic, sexually repressed and all the rest. The feeling I get from people back there who support these bonkers ideas, it’s like they are so desperate to distinguish themselves from that repressed, judgemental past, so eager to demonstrate that things have really, honestly, changed and that they aren’t like that any more, that they go far too far in the opposite direction.

Helpfulhaddock · 05/01/2023 19:27

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 15:52

New article updating on some issues:

wingsoverscotland.com/there-are-no-ships/

Am I missing something here? One of the highlighted sections from the report states:

"2. Definitions

The Group recommends that the Scottish Government adopt these definitions:

2.1 'Conversion practices' refers to any treatment, practice or effort that aims to change, suppress and/or eliminate a person's sexual orientation, gender identity and/or gender expression. A person cannot consent to conversion practices being carried out against them."

According to that, any treatment, practice or effort that aims to change a person's gender identity cannot be consented to!

Isn't that a massive problem for the Scottish government's direction of travel?

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 19:32

According to that, any treatment, practice or effort that aims to change a person's gender identity cannot be consented to!

That's internally consistent within a framework of batshit.

The ideology says 'Gender identity' is innate, it's just a feeling.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 19:38

So, they'd see surgery or medications as changing one's body or 'gender expression' to suit that vague indefinable inner sense of 'gender identity'.

I'm sorry, I know it doesn't make sense.

Abhannmor · 05/01/2023 20:00

@Chocchops72 100% Ireland too. We've changed, honest ! Liberal poster boy of Europe.

Please love us !

Rainbowshit · 05/01/2023 20:06

2.1 'Conversion practices' refers to any treatment, practice or effort that aims to change, suppress and/or eliminate a person's sexual orientation, gender identity and/or gender expression. A person cannot consent to conversion practices being carried out against them."

So trying to persuade your daughter that binders are harmful would be criminalised?

Absolutely terrifying.

SlicerAndEcho · 05/01/2023 20:14

To be fair, I have noticed in the past couple of years schools started talking about how parents are a child's 1st and most important teachers, which is something I hadn't heard before.

Speaking as a teacher, this is in no small part due to the parents who seem to expect schools to deal with everything. A gentle reminder that we can’t do all the work. The ones who don’t bother reading or practising spelling or checking homework, or even doing any discipline, because that’s what school is for. Or at least, in the country I teach in.

nilsmousehammer · 05/01/2023 20:31

Rainbowshit · 05/01/2023 20:06

2.1 'Conversion practices' refers to any treatment, practice or effort that aims to change, suppress and/or eliminate a person's sexual orientation, gender identity and/or gender expression. A person cannot consent to conversion practices being carried out against them."

So trying to persuade your daughter that binders are harmful would be criminalised?

Absolutely terrifying.

And yet trust me on this, I am absolutely willing to go now to a bookie and put a large sum on it turning out that this does not mean women will be allowed to be lesbians in a sex based way, saying no to hetero sex while pretending it's homosexual sex for the sake of the male person's feelings.

That kind of changing, suppressing, eliminating (threatening, excluding, harassment) will be bloody fine .

onyttig · 05/01/2023 21:43

nilsmousehammer · 05/01/2023 20:31

And yet trust me on this, I am absolutely willing to go now to a bookie and put a large sum on it turning out that this does not mean women will be allowed to be lesbians in a sex based way, saying no to hetero sex while pretending it's homosexual sex for the sake of the male person's feelings.

That kind of changing, suppressing, eliminating (threatening, excluding, harassment) will be bloody fine .

it sounds like a safe bet to me.

The elephant in the room - one of them anyway! - is the issue around trans being a way of eliminating homosexuality: better a straight son than a lesbian daughter 🙄. It’s a proposed ban on ‘conversion therapy’ that prevents exploration of whether the individual is just gay (because that would be questioning their gender identity).

I don’t see how they square that particular circle.

Hedjwitch · 05/01/2023 21:48

Being in Scotland right now is genuinely frightening. Please share far and wide what is going on here and support Scottish women in this fight.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 05/01/2023 22:32

The feeling I get from people back there who support these bonkers ideas, it’s like they are so desperate to distinguish themselves from that repressed, judgemental past, so eager to demonstrate that things have really, honestly, changed and that they aren’t like that any more, that they go far too far in the opposite direction.

I think there's also a sense of being adrift. If your culture was very tight wound and now it isn't, all the norms have gone. You know the old boundaries were wrong but it's not like there are new ones ready and waiting behind them in better places - boundaries are things cultures build. So now you are kind of looking to external voices to give you a perspective you don't have.

I also think with gender identity in particular, it's so illogical ...

("you know how there are men and women, right? Well, that's right, there are men and women, but it turns out it's not actually anything to do with what sex you are, it's actually this inner knowledge in your brain from hormones in the womb or something, and sometimes it turns up in the wrong body, and those people are really the other sex even though their body is a different sex, but they sort of always know because they like toys and clothes for the other sex even when they are very young, except sometimes they don't realise at all until they are quite old, especially men who are really women, and they've had these really macho lives and got married and had kids and stuff, to compensate I guess, but then they realise they were really lesbian women all along, and so the thing is it turns out that stuff like sexism, and MVAWG, and other horrible man things like flashing and perving and stuff, it's nothing to do with what body someone has, it's actually an inner man gender reacting to an inner woman gender, and so these people who we thought were men but are actually women, they shouldn't be in men's toilets or changing rooms after all, they should be with the other women because they have the same type of mind, and it might look like a penis but it's totally different because it's actually a woman's penis and if we hadn't been brainwashed into the gender binary we'd never even think to notice it, and the same for sports, it's all about what type of mind you have, and you can't say things like "women can have babies and that's a significant difference" because that's just reducing people to their bodies, and you shouldn't expect men and women to have a particular sex but if kids think they have the wrong body you have to give them hormones and surgery if they ask because otherwise their lives will be terrible and they will probably self harm or worse, and there's no one way to be trans and cis people can't know what trans people feel so if you ever question anything that trans people say trans is or cis is it's as bad as wishing they were dead because they've been suffering for so long so now we just have to be allies and believe them...")

...it's so illogical, yet being insisted with such authority by so many cultural and establishment bodies, that people simply have no confidence in their own judgement on this and so go along with what they are told by the "experts".

I mean, once you've accepted that the sex differences (physical and social) you can clearly see don't make any difference to our lives, but an inner gender no one can know unless a person tells them plays a huge role, how can you go on to make any rational conclusions from that? You are literally accepting you can't trust your own knowledge or observation in this matter. So, once you accept that, you are unavoidably tied into someone else telling you what's "right" based on this thing you yourself can't perceive.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 22:37

SlicerAndEcho · 05/01/2023 20:14

To be fair, I have noticed in the past couple of years schools started talking about how parents are a child's 1st and most important teachers, which is something I hadn't heard before.

Speaking as a teacher, this is in no small part due to the parents who seem to expect schools to deal with everything. A gentle reminder that we can’t do all the work. The ones who don’t bother reading or practising spelling or checking homework, or even doing any discipline, because that’s what school is for. Or at least, in the country I teach in.

Well, I can't speak for the rationale behind it, but that's not how it's been presented! I found it reassuring that the centrality & importance of family was being recognised, although I know quite often things get trotted out as part of a litany of lip service.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 22:39

...it's so illogical, yet being insisted with such authority by so many cultural and establishment bodies, that people simply have no confidence in their own judgement on this and so go along with what they are told by the "experts".

There is a great bit of writing on why we trust experts to outsource our thinking, and how we kind of have to in some ways - most people don't have the time or wherewithal to learn the intricacies of every field. I wish I could remember where it was ... it does mean we can be hoodwinked by people we would normally reasonably trust.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 23:19

'Where parents or guardians have engaged in conversion practices, the
modification or even withdrawal of their parental or guardianship rights is
envisaged as an option.'

'The Group notes that conversion practices may be carried out by
healthcare professionals, for instance by a psychiatrist. Where that is the
case, conversion practices involve questions of professional standards.
Where the perpetrator of any of the criminalised acts is a healthcare
professional, the legal consequences should include the option of the
withdrawal of the perpetrator's professional licence'

'The concept of creating a Commission to deal with conversion practices
is inspired by the Change or Suppression (Conversion) Practices
Prohibition Act 2021 of the State of Victoria (Australia).14 This Act gives
the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission certain
specific functions and powers with the aim of ending conversion
practices, for example, investigative powers. There are some distinct
advantages to giving targeted powers to a legal body:'

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 23:22

'Provide support and resourcing – for grassroots LGBT+
organisations to provide holistic support for victims, rather than
shifting the burden onto mental health services or the criminal
justice system.'

Hmm
ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 23:25

'Conversion practices result in lasting psychological harm, which
includes emotional and/or spiritual crisis, and can result in depression, low self-esteem, anxiety, suicidal ideation, posttraumatic effects including post-traumatic stress disorder, sexual dysfunction, guilt, shame, self-loathing and crisis of identity. There may, in many cases, be a need for therapeutic work to focus on internalised homo/lesbo/bi/transphobia, guilt and shame.
...
some of this healing work for those who experienced conversion practices in the context of religion may also need to take place within religious communities/spaces, and much of the work may be done within the LGBT+ community'

I am a bit confused at why they are suggesting that psychological effects should not be put onto the 'mental health services' but instead dealt with by grassroots LGBT groups and community.

Why not push for better mental healthcare?

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 23:32

This report seems to be suggesting that this Commission be given investigative powers, the ability to bring criminal charges, provide 'expert evidence', remove parental/guardianship powers, and also task the Commission with the 'healing' needed - including apparently 'spiritual' healing if I'm reading that correctly - without fussing with police, mental health support, or any existing structures that we have for dealing with crimes/crises/people who need support.

I don't think I'm allowed to use the 'c' word on here, am I?

Perhaps I'm reading it all wrong.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2023 23:33

Ah, at last we get to some definitions:

''Gender expression' and ‘expression of sexual orientation’ refers to
each person's manifestations of their gender identity and/or expression
of sexual orientation and/or the one that is perceived by others.

2.3 'Gender identity' refers to each person's internal and individual
experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with their sex
assigned at birth, including their personal sense of the body (which may
involve, if freely chosen, modification of bodily appearance and/or
functions by medical, surgical or other means) and other expressions of
gender, including name, dress, speech and mannerisms.

2.4 'Sexual orientation' refers to a person's emotional, affectional and
sexual attraction to persons of a different gender, the same gender or
more than one gender and includes the lack of such attraction or
relations'

Why on earth is it called 'sexual orientation' if it's all about gEnDEr?

PaterPower · 05/01/2023 23:40

I am a bit confused at why they are suggesting that psychological effects should not be put onto the 'mental health services' but instead dealt with by grassroots LGBT groups and community.

You’re missing the grifting opportunities. Over-generously paid jobs for those TQ+ ‘grassroots’ activists with the ‘right’ ‘lived experience.’

You know… the sort who need their support cat / Mother handy on important calls… who wouldn’t otherwise have a hope in hell of earning more than minimum wage.

nepeta · 05/01/2023 23:45

My understanding is that the person in Ontario going to schools to teach while wearing humongous artificial breasts cannot be disciplined because the law there protects the concept of 'gender expression' and this behaviour falls under that.

Also agree with others here that conversion practice against being gay or Lesbian would surely mean transitioning the child? So if nobody is allowed to stop a child who would grow up to be gay or Lesbian from transitioning if that's what peers or the online world have suggested to the child, isn't the system itself then guilty of conversion practices?

All the word salad gives me mental indigestion, and that is probably an intended effect, given that queer theory tries to destabilise everything.

scratchedbymycat · 06/01/2023 06:23

@Pinkbonbon

"The thing is, I don't think many of my people are worth fighting along side anymore. So many are brainwashed. I even saw a local woman get flamed on reddit the other day for saying she felt uncomfortable in a mixed sex bathroom. The majority of replies were completely unsympathetic. As if she didn't even have the right to her the discomfort. "

I'm in Scotland. I've been silently absorbing all this, processing it, but after a sharp rebuke from my very best dearest friend 5 years ago, I've not been talking about it to anyone.

Until last year. Another friend raised it (sex ed at her daughters school) when my best friend was present. I relayed 5 years of information - best friend is peaked (she actually used the words perverts to describe men trying to access woman's safe spaces).

Then I outed myself as a 'terf' to my SIL when I asked her to sign the equality act petition. Turns out she is also GC but was too nervous to say so. She has a whole group of friends raging about it - but none talking out loud.

Then I had an odd conversation at a school function with a women I don't know at all. There was a very slight reference to the GRR bill. I quietly asked her to one side 'How do you feel about all this?' To which she replied carefully, 'erm, possibly the way you might be feeling about it'. So I outed myself to a stranger and I now have an staunch ally in approaching the school if harmful gender crap creeps in.

If I didn't have young teenage children in a very small community I'd be on all the marches. But as it is, I'm very worried they'll be on the receiving end of hate and abuse if their mother is the open 'terf' in the village.

I'm trying to find a way I can do more, apart from signing petitions and writing to MSPs and MPs. I'm thinking about suggesting a monthly meet-up in our homes and bringing all these women together plus their friends to organise and work on targeted actions every month - letter writing, pamphlet spreading whatever. In a safe place, where they know they can trust each other.

Im also looking out in groups for the ones who say nothing - including men, by the way - ignoring the ones who are loudly pro self id. The ones who say nothing, in my mind, fall into three categories: don't want to get involved at all, don't know, know but fearful of speaking out. Two out of those three categories are an opportunity to gently talk - and I'm now feeling brave enough to put out feelers.

All of this is to say to you I've been stunned how many like-minded women I've stumbled across. None of us would talk openly to a stranger, but trust me, we will all vote with real anger in our hearts. Don't leave. Stay and look for the quiet ones. I think there are hundreds of us trying to find a way in.

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