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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

First non-binary priest in C of E

310 replies

inkjet · 02/01/2023 20:27

uk.news.yahoo.com/church-england-first-non-binary-161400908.html

They describe themselves as non-binary and genderqueer but also say that the phrase “from maleness to femaleness” in Genesis provoked an epiphany.

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WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 09:54

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 09:52

Werewolves I've appreciated your willingness to engage and debate in good faith on this thread

I'm going to echo@Toomie sentiment it had made for a much less fraught discussion on differing opinions.

Which is rather refreshing in these parts.

As they say it's good to talk.

Thanks 😊

Poonicorn · 03/01/2023 09:56

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 09:44

@Poonicorn I get what you're saying, but if they believe it's a 'spectrum' rather than by a concept of 'opposite', It can't really be 'opposite' something if there are many genders. What's it opposite to? I suppose binary and non binary but what about all the people on the spectrum (line or circle version), where do they fit in?

That's just another reason why non-binary makes no sense. Gender ideology teaches that gender is a spectrum therefore by that logic everyone is non-binary. So what does non-binary mean other than a man wearing sparkly eyeshadow?

Poonicorn · 03/01/2023 09:58

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 09:52

Werewolves I've appreciated your willingness to engage and debate in good faith on this thread

I'm going to echo@Toomie sentiment it had made for a much less fraught discussion on differing opinions.

Which is rather refreshing in these parts.

As they say it's good to talk.

I also agree. Rare for someone sympathising with gender ideology not to just cry bigot and flounce off. Very refreshing @WerewolvesAtMidnight

eveoha · 03/01/2023 10:00

I’d be v curious re parishioners views on his ‘persona’ 👍🏿☘️

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 10:00

What has this guy actually done to warrant a place in the spotlight

from reading it seems to be eyeshadow and wearing 'gender non conforming something's' and probably really confusing and upsetting his wife and children reading. Oh and misinterpreting the bible. Oh and..... (Time out Boiled time out 🤐)

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 10:00

Toomie · 03/01/2023 09:50

WerewolvesAtMidnight
From my perspective I tried to raise my children equally and where they were 'treated differently' when they got older that was due to their personality and other traits not their sex or gender.

Neither of them have any particular traits relating to their gender described in the para above but they are in their thirties now. Is it a more recent thing again rather than just old fashioned sexist attitudes? Genuinely asking as none of my friends have small children.

When she says ‘raised’, I don’t think she’s referring to individual parenting styles, more how people are raised on a societal level. A good, if obvious, illustration of this is children’s clothing and toys.

Go into any High Street shop or supermarket, and the girls clothing will be more delicate, less practical and have animal motifs that feature weak/prey animals such as rabbits, deer, butterflies and slogans such as ‘Be Kind’ ‘Cute’ ‘Princess’ etc. Toys in the girls aisle will still be mainly kitchens, babies, nurturing and focus on home, friendship and creativity.

Boys clothing is almost always much more robust, shoes with proper treads, thicker materials and features strong, predator animals such as sharks, dinosaurs, bears and slogans like ‘Little Adventurer’ ‘Here Comes Trouble’. Boys toys are all about action, often fighting, building, sports etc

I have a five year old and can sadly confirm that gendering of kids stuff is definitely worse now than when in my seventies/early 80s childhood.

Obviously gender stereotyping is much more than just children’s toys and clothes, but the fact that this stuff is so ubiquitous from the very start and seldom noticed or challenged, supports Rebecca’s comments about the societal assumptions children are still raised under, whether their parents explicitly engage in it or not.

Sorry if this is a derail

Ah yes, I do agree with you there, sadly there are those differences, and, no matter how hard we try it probably does still make a difference in how they are raised. I did try to avoid overly gendered clothing and toys etc. but I see society still isn't helping in that regard. I guess we have to try to do our best regardless, as you are.

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 10:02

Boiledbeetle
Werewolves I've appreciated your willingness to engage and debate in good faith on this thread

I'm going to echo@Toomie sentiment it had made for a much less fraught discussion on differing opinions.

Which is rather refreshing in these parts.

As they say it's good to talk.

I also agree. Rare for someone sympathising with gender ideology not to just cry bigot and flounce off. Very refreshing @WerewolvesAtMidnight

Thanks @Poonicorn ☺️

WarningToTheCurious · 03/01/2023 10:08

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 09:00

So the at the time equivalent of the food safety standards Agency, ensuring they didn't lose vast swathes of people to food poisoning. Clever. Although (as with probably vast chunks of writing in the godly book not really relevant in the 21st century) now we have refrigeration and better understanding of hygiene and bugs.

Pork was off limits too - being cloven-footed but not chewing the cud.

Again sensible, due to the parasite risk of under cooked pork.

Waitwhat23 · 03/01/2023 10:08

One thing I've been pondering over - when did non binary become 'non conforming' rather than 'feels neither male or female'? There are cosmetic surgeries (in the US mostly, I think) which still offer nullification surgery for non binary patients.

It appears to have changed from 'I don't want to be either' to males (mostly) claiming that they are non binary simply because they want to wear make up.

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 10:09

Go into any High Street shop or supermarket, and the girls clothing will be more delicate, less practical and have animal motifs that feature weak/prey animals such as rabbits, deer, butterflies and slogans such as ‘Be Kind’ ‘Cute’ ‘Princess’ etc. Toys in the girls aisle will still be mainly kitchens, babies, nurturing and focus on home, friendship and creativity.

Boys clothing is almost always much more robust, shoes with proper treads, thicker materials and features strong, predator animals such as sharks, dinosaurs, bears and slogans like ‘Little Adventurer’ ‘Here Comes Trouble’. Boys toys are all about action, often fighting, building, sports etc

@Toomie I don't have kids so hadn't really thought about it I mean I've been aghast by the pink blue split that happened some time round the end of the 90s? but you pointing out the predator prey thing...I find that actually rather disturbing. They are setting the boys up as the dominating force from the very beginning.

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 10:09

@NotBadConsidering perhaps they did and the journalist unfortunately didn't consider Joan newsworthy, perhaps they did and the journalist didn't include those bits in their word count because they are after 'juice' not good deeds. No way to tell, but it's unlikely the journalist would go after what they unfortunately consider 'boring' stuff unless they could see an angle to use.

Wellies54 · 03/01/2023 10:11

😂😂😂You are not wrong there!

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 10:13

Waitwhat23 · 03/01/2023 10:08

One thing I've been pondering over - when did non binary become 'non conforming' rather than 'feels neither male or female'? There are cosmetic surgeries (in the US mostly, I think) which still offer nullification surgery for non binary patients.

It appears to have changed from 'I don't want to be either' to males (mostly) claiming that they are non binary simply because they want to wear make up.

I think it boils down to 'feelings' again. Do they 'feel' non binary or to they 'feel' like a man or woman that is non-conforming. I think there's room for everyone there, each to their own as it were.

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 10:13

Oooh look at us all getting along.

2023 is starting off well

☕and a slice of 🍰for all

but definitely no 🍤

More tea Vicar?

Wellies54 · 03/01/2023 10:13

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 09:36

but I just can't put my finger on it!

@Wellies54 fairly sure you wouldn't want to put your finger on it!😳😶

Oops the quote disappeared. I was of course referring to this!

NotBadConsidering · 03/01/2023 10:15

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 10:09

@NotBadConsidering perhaps they did and the journalist unfortunately didn't consider Joan newsworthy, perhaps they did and the journalist didn't include those bits in their word count because they are after 'juice' not good deeds. No way to tell, but it's unlikely the journalist would go after what they unfortunately consider 'boring' stuff unless they could see an angle to use.

And that’s what I’m sick of. The fact if you put a gender ideology spin on something it’s deemed newsworthy when there’s nothing newsworthy here at all. And the fact there are shallow people making hay while the sun shines. Just like a Kardashian.

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 10:15

Waitwhat23 · 03/01/2023 10:08

One thing I've been pondering over - when did non binary become 'non conforming' rather than 'feels neither male or female'? There are cosmetic surgeries (in the US mostly, I think) which still offer nullification surgery for non binary patients.

It appears to have changed from 'I don't want to be either' to males (mostly) claiming that they are non binary simply because they want to wear make up.

Oh hang on I think I misinterpreted what you meant. I think you were referring to people wanting to look androgynous? I think that still exists too.

Waitwhat23 · 03/01/2023 10:16

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 10:09

Go into any High Street shop or supermarket, and the girls clothing will be more delicate, less practical and have animal motifs that feature weak/prey animals such as rabbits, deer, butterflies and slogans such as ‘Be Kind’ ‘Cute’ ‘Princess’ etc. Toys in the girls aisle will still be mainly kitchens, babies, nurturing and focus on home, friendship and creativity.

Boys clothing is almost always much more robust, shoes with proper treads, thicker materials and features strong, predator animals such as sharks, dinosaurs, bears and slogans like ‘Little Adventurer’ ‘Here Comes Trouble’. Boys toys are all about action, often fighting, building, sports etc

@Toomie I don't have kids so hadn't really thought about it I mean I've been aghast by the pink blue split that happened some time round the end of the 90s? but you pointing out the predator prey thing...I find that actually rather disturbing. They are setting the boys up as the dominating force from the very beginning.

I believe this campaign had its first inception here on Mumsnet - www.letclothesbeclothes.co.uk/

They do Twitter posts sometimes when they go into shops and compare the clothes on sale at that point - it's really fascinating (and somewhat depressing) - I'll try and find a link.

I came across the issue recently when buying pants for my wee one. A packet of pants for toddler girls had slogans like 'be kind' and 'be nice ' on the front of them. Putting aside the sheer creepiness of putting such slogans on children's knickers, I would take a punt that such slogans are not on the front of boy's pants.

Toomie · 03/01/2023 10:17

@Boiledbeetle
The predator/prey thing is quite chilling isn't it?

P.S. I'm envious of your bolding skills Grin

BarkAscending · 03/01/2023 10:18

But I'd like to believe you marry the person someone becomes as much as you marry the person that they are

This is a really horrible coercive sentence. I feel really sorry for the wife.

HerReputationMadeItDifficultToProceed · 03/01/2023 10:19

This isn't new. Years ago I was just minding my own business, scavenging some lead off the roof of a church on Oxford Road in Manchester, usual day for me at the time. Anyway, I saw a Vicar who would definitely today be described as "non-binary" - flamboyant chap in ballet-wear. He wasn't strange, he just wanted to live his life that way.

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 10:20

Not quoting as it's getting large, but referring to the gendered clothing and toys, it's affecting girls yes and also boys as you say, it could be starting an early feed into toxic masculinity which isn't good for anyone.

WerewolvesAtMidnight · 03/01/2023 10:24

HerReputationMadeItDifficultToProceed · 03/01/2023 10:19

This isn't new. Years ago I was just minding my own business, scavenging some lead off the roof of a church on Oxford Road in Manchester, usual day for me at the time. Anyway, I saw a Vicar who would definitely today be described as "non-binary" - flamboyant chap in ballet-wear. He wasn't strange, he just wanted to live his life that way.

Fair play! Sounds like an cut Only Fools and Horses scene, and they went with the weeping statue instead!

Boiledbeetle · 03/01/2023 10:27

BarkAscending · 03/01/2023 10:18

But I'd like to believe you marry the person someone becomes as much as you marry the person that they are

This is a really horrible coercive sentence. I feel really sorry for the wife.

Yeah and I'm sure TinselAngel would have a few comments to make on this line alone. It's not fair on his wife as he's not the man she thought she was marrying.

WarningToTheCurious · 03/01/2023 10:31

CremeEggsForBreakfast · 03/01/2023 09:12

My biggest problem with this is his claim that we are all interpreting Genesis 1:27 wrong. It doesn't talk about "maleness and femaleness" at all. It says "male and female he created them".

It shocks me that this chap passed all the theological training to become a priest and yet clearly cannot even look up a verse in an interlinear Bible to see what the original Hebrew words are and hasn't grasped that Genesis 1 is a poetic/meditative story.

Isn’t part of the significance of Genesis 1:27 being that it talks of creating “man” and “him” in the masculine singular and then “male and female” and “them” in the plural? And that it implies male and female are equal?

Nothing that I recall about maleness and femaleness though.