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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Study of Monkeypox in Women in the Lancet

120 replies

Igneococcus · 30/12/2022 22:26

Have a guess what percentage of the study are actually women.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)02187-0/fulltext#:~:text=The%20clinical%20features%20of%20monkeypox%20in%20women%20and,anal%20and%20genital%20lesions%20with%20prominent%20mucosal%20involvement.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 31/12/2022 13:45

when non-scientists think they know more about what a scientist
studies than they do

do who do what does now?

DreamingOfAGreenChristmas · 31/12/2022 13:48

ResisterRex · 31/12/2022 10:26

female subjects identifying as non binary have been categorised as female.

So it means no more than if females identified as having a strong feeling about enjoying the weekend or not, then. It means nothing in this context.

There rises the question - what is this term doing in a study like this? It's reasonable to question it and without it having a real, tangible link to anything, to be concerned that this is part of a number of efforts we have seen in a number of papers and policy etc, to normalise this term.

The effect of normalising it - if we don't push back - will eventually be to erase women. This is extremely concerning to women.

I agree with you about erasure, normalisation etc. I am GC.

But for this study it seems to me that unlike other epidemiological studies, they have included people who identify in different ways but instead of categorising them according to gender identity they have discounted what 'feelz' and categorised by sex.

The Title is misleading because it uses 'women' where they mean 'women and transwomen', and I agree with you, this promotes erasure, normalisation etc. But in the study details itself I think they have to establish that they are categorising subjects differently to how mass studies have done it . And to do that they have used the terminology used in other studies and then said that they will categorise by sex, not by gender id.

I do take issue with their description of 'cis women' as a subset of 'women'.

DreamingOfAGreenChristmas · 31/12/2022 13:49

P.S: GC adult human female (woman) arts grad but with a Grade A biology A level.

DarkDayforMN · 31/12/2022 14:13

I wonder if they were looking for a way to study men who reject their manhood and actually weren’t all that interested in the women

I get the exact opposite impression. I think they wanted to study actual women like they say in the introduction to their paper. They’ve been careful to sex disaggregate the results properly.

Perhaps they thought the Lancet wouldn’t publish them if they excluded men from the study population.

midgetastic · 31/12/2022 14:22

Makes it all over complicated

Wonder who has studied monkey pox in men including transmen ?

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 31/12/2022 15:29

DecayedStrumpet · 31/12/2022 08:50

I read the paper previously, and to be fair I thoight it did a reasonable job.

Much easier to read if every time you see "cis women and non-binary individuals', you mentally substitute 'females', and 'transwomen', males.

It would be unethical to recruit transwomen to your study amd then refer to them all as men though, consent is everything and I doubt they'd conesnt to that.

Did anyone ask the women if they consented to be called cis? I doubt it. So why do certain groups of people get a pass and others not.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/12/2022 16:39

Perhaps they thought the Lancet wouldn’t publish them if they excluded men from the study population.

I think this is quite plausible.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 31/12/2022 16:43

By using the word women in the title, the immediate impression is that it is women of the biological kind, you know the way we all understood it until 5 minutes ago.

im extremely tired of this kow towing to gender nonsense

if I want to read something medical about women I expect it to be based on sex unless it specifies it isnt based on sex in the title

i mean fir example - I wouldn’t read an article about football because im
not interested in football. I’d be pissed pff if I started to read an article claiming to be about rugby only to discover it was in fact about football, it just self identified as being about rugby

RedToothBrush · 31/12/2022 16:51

The cohort comprised 62 trans women, 69 cis women, and five non-binary individuals (who were, because of small numbers, grouped with cis women to form a category of people assigned female at birth for the purpose of comparison).
Conclusion: The name of the study being called 'Human monkeypox virus infection in women and non-binary individuals during the 2022 outbreaks: a global case series' is grossly misleading. Why on earth lump them together at all? Indeed read on...

121 (89%) of 136 individuals reported sex with men.
So this is a study largely comparing heterosexual women with gay males. So its not representative of women and men in the general population. Its representative of women who are lower risk and gay males who are higher risk.

37 (27%) of all individuals were living with HIV, with a higher proportion among trans women (31 [50%] of 62) than among cis women and non-binary individuals (six [8%] of 74).
Wow. Whats going on here? What is the instance of HIV in the general population? Those transwomen are particularly high risk even if you allow for them being gay. That really suggest there is a behavioural pattern here - transwomen do not have the same health risks as women and their sexual behaviour is much higher risk (and is unrepresentative of the general male population too). They are mixing in higher risk groups. However women who do get monkey pox, look to also be in a higher risk group for sexual behaviour than the general population. This is the key finding of the study. The people they are studying have sexual behaviour which is riskier than others.

Sexual transmission was suspected in 55 (89%) trans women (with the remainder having an unknown route of transmission) and 45 (61%) cis women and non-binary individuals; non-sexual routes of transmission (including household and occupational exposures) were reported only in cis women and non-binary individuals.
Hello! What's going on here??? What are the transwomen doing that they seemingly don't recall / remember??? Sexual transmission is much higher in this group of males than women to begin with, with the rest having no idea how they got it, and not reporting it as non-sexual. The women however were clearly getting it off someone else due to other close contact which the transwomen clearly weren't also party to - so caring, someone they lived with or through work of some kind. Which suggests their living arrangement and occupations were also markedly different.

And here's the paragraph that says this:
Although 121 (89%) of the 136 individuals in this global case series reported having sex with men, 59% of cis women and non-binary individuals had a regular male partner, whereas 73% of trans women had multiple male partners. Having multiple sexual partners was a common risk factor for monkeypox virus infection in previous series in men. Sexual contact was thought to be the most likely route of transmission in 74% of our cohort overall. This value is lower than the 95–100% reported in series of men.
Except they failed to identify a single alternative route of transmission in the males in the study, but they did for the females... This is one of those 'it depends on how you write this up' rather than proving anything. Absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.

25 (34%) of 74 cis women and non-binary individuals submitted to the case series were initially misdiagnosed.
Women were failed and were misdiagnosed.

And interestingly this is why:
Most trans women (41 [66%]) presented to sexual health or HIV clinics, and 13 (21%) presented to emergency departments. Cis women and non-binary individuals most commonly presented to emergency departments (26 [35%]), with 21 (24%) presenting to sexual health or HIV clinics and the remainder presenting to other hospital departments (including dermatology, gynaecology, and obstetrics) or primary care (table 2). Misdiagnosis before a diagnosis of monkeypox virus infection was more common among cis women and non-binary individuals (25 [34%]) than among trans women (six [10%]). Additionally, delayed diagnosis was more common among cis women and non-binary individuals, with 48 (77%) trans women diagnosed on their first visit compared with 43 (58%) cis women and non-binary individuals
The men knew they were high risk and behaving in a high risk way and the HCPs identified them as men who were at high risk for monkeypox. Women got second rate treatment.

Transmissions during the global outbreaks have been overwhelmingly associated with sexual contact and have almost exclusively affected sexually active gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (GBMSM). 28–47% of individuals diagnosed with monkeypox infection are living with HIV, and a majority of those without HIV are on HIV pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP). Consequently, international case definitions specify GBMSM as the at-risk group, and prevention efforts have focused on GBMSM on PrEP, individuals living with HIV, men with sexually transmitted infections (STIs), and individuals attending sex-on-site venues, including sexual activity at mass gatherings. So far, sustained spread outside of GBMSM networks has not occurred; however, the spread of monkeypox virus to women is a concern, especially because of the potential for serious consequences for fetuses if pregnant individuals become infected.
Well the study hasn't disproved any of this. Nor has it gone anywhere near anything to do with pregancy really.

We hypothesised that the transmission routes and clinical presentation of monkeypox virus in the current outbreaks might not be the same for women as for GBMSM, and that presentations might also differ between cis and trans women.
We hypothesised that women are women and that transwomen who have sex with men will have exactly the same risk profiles for sexually transmitted diseases that are well known and documented, because transwomen are behaving in sexually different ways, mixing in high risk groups and well, aren't women. And we have successfully proved in a study that women are not the same as transwomen.

34 (55%) of 62 trans women and two (3%) of 74 cis women and non-binary people reported current sex work.
So we are comparing trans sex workers with women. The women weren't getting it from sex work. BIG question there for how the women were getting infected. What were their male partners doing? This question is massively important.
Plus look at this:
Although 121 (89%) of the 136 individuals in this global case series reported having sex with men, 59% of cis women and non-binary individuals had a regular male partner, whereas 73% of trans women had multiple male partners.

19 (14%) individuals (18 cis women and one non-binary individual) had children at home, among whom two children subsequently contracted monkeypox.
Women have children who they are responsible for. Shocker.

White males 8/62 (13%) women 32/74 (43%) overall 40/136 (29%)
Latinx males 38/62 (61%) women 23/74 (31%) overall 61/136 (45%)
Black males 13/62 (21%) women 15/74 (20%) overall 28/136 (21%)
Asian males 2/62 (3%) women 1/74 (1%) overall 3/136 (2%)
Mixed males 1/62 (2%) women 1/74 (1%) overall 2/136 (1%)
Whats going on here?
Trans and latin is particularly high risk. This is massively different to the white breakdown.

Admitted to hospital for monkeypox virus infection
males: Yes 2/62 (3%) women: 15/74 (20%)
Hmmm. If you read further on the range of what they were hospitalised for there is a marked difference with there being a much wider range for women.
17 (13%) of 136 women (including 15 [20%] cis women and non-binary individuals and two [3%] trans women) were hospitalised. Reasons for admission included cellulitis, abscess, or bacterial superinfection; severe anorectal pain; odynophagia; infection control purposes; ocular lesion; and altered mental status and worsening left-sided weakness.
The males were ONLY admitted for anorectal pain or 'other' reasons (not detailed above).
Further to that Women were also much less likely to get anti-biotic treatment or monkey-pox specific treatment.

Furthermore, most epidemiological surveillance datasets have not distinguished between cis and trans women, thereby prohibiting a detailed description and characterisation of any differences in these two subpopulations, which are generally under-represented and under-reported in HIV and sexual health research.
Uh huh what?! Are we saying that its typical and usual for women to be lumped together with high risk behavioured transwomen in studies? And given that they are massively going to much more likely to be sex workers than women, is that fucking up what little research there is in HIV and sexual health research for women? And is this saying that an EVEN GREATER number of cases of HIV and STIs are actually in males than women than research is suggesting? What is this saying about the behaviour of males and how it differs from females?

Conclusion
Latin transwomen, are particularly at risk. Transwomen were more likely to have multiple partners, be sex workers and have HIV to begin with. They couldn't identify transmission routes which weren't sexual. They got monkeypox specific treatments and were diagnosed quicker.
Women were much more likely to have lower risk lifestyles as they had fewer sexual partners and were much less likely to be sex workers. They were higher risk than the general population, but lower risk than males engaging in sex with men. There was a risk in normal occupations or cohabiting separate from sexual transmission which hasn't be identified in males. They got a far wider range of complications and were much more likely to be hospitalised. This possibly is the result of later diagnosis, less medical intervention through antibiotics and lowe access to treatment which wasn't specific to monkeypox. There is a big unanswered question about the lifestyles of their male partners.

So even though the transwomen were more vulnerable they were getting better and quicker treatment than women. The transwomen were being identified as male, knew they were male and were well aware that they were at greater risk due to where they were showing up for help.

The study shows in great detail why lumping transwomen together with women, isn't good for women as there is a difference in behaviour, lifestyles, risk profiles, outcomes and access to appropriate care.

For me, its an interesting study with a bloody dreadful title. And it shows exactly WHY sex matters and why gender is a load of old male baloney. It would be much better merely to record lifestyle data and sex without the confusing word salad, which can easily misrepresent data for actual women.

ropework · 31/12/2022 18:51

Well I for one, am very much looking forward to their follow-up paper on transmen. Important questions could be answered, such as: Is monkeypox virus DNA found in the semen of transmen, like it is in other men?

WinterSnowing · 31/12/2022 23:46

As someone who is used to reading studies, I do think using the term ciswomen is undermining of science. Data, clear data, has to be specific and not ‘fuzzy’. Reporting data on men who present as women of monkey pox is useful, as it of women, and men who do not present as women. Saying someone is a trans woman or non binary is ‘fuzzy’ as it is not clear what sex they are.

It’s that simple and although this is not a bad study per se, it lacks clarity and also the findings then do not clearly look at sex, presentation as trans gender and the link to monkey pox, as it obfuscates too much and presents the findings as ‘gender’ rather than sex and presentations.

WinterSnowing · 31/12/2022 23:50

As an example, the public health data on sexually transmitted disease refers to gay men as MSM - men who have sex with men. This makes it very clear who this group is. It is not LED by the gay community to use this terminology, nor is it offensive (as far as I know!).

However this paper seems LED by trans ideology terms which are extremely fuzzy and unspecific and also are not truths - men are not women even if they want to present as women. This is just a biological fact.

PermanentTemporary · 01/01/2023 00:50

I thought the data on sexual orientation was fairly useless - stating 'heterosexual' in this study was a meaningless description. There wasn't enough about how many male and female sexual partners were involved, especially as the single similarity between the women and transitioned men that they identified was the greater presence of mucosal lesions than have been identified in studies of other men. That's about the behaviour of the virus, and was an interesting finding. Tbh that to me is a very small item.

PriOn1 · 01/01/2023 08:31

I find myself wondering what their aims and expectations were when they started this study.

Were they expecting to find that men who claim they are women are putting themselves at risk the same as other men, or perhaps men who have sex with men? Or were they wondering if/hoping that there was a difference they could highlight?

Was it their sincere aim to study “women” (even if their definition of women is corrupted) or might it be that it has become so normalised in clinical trials and studies to use that corrupted definition that they wanted to highlight that grouping women and men that claim they are women together when claiming to study women is insanity?

has it become ”typical and usual for women to be lumped together with high risk behavioured transwomen in studies?” This is a crucial question. If this has already been normalised in some areas of medical research that these clinicians felt that they needed a study to highlight this flaw to their fellow medics? That might potentially be their aim, in which case, use of the corrupted but normalised language would be essential for them to take the first step in demonstrating how unsafe this was and how much it undermines research on women.

While I agree that use of this corrupted language undermines the credibility of this research and The Lancet, if the authors are working in an area they can see is so corrupted that drawing any attention to it requires this level of game-playing, it might be a necessary starting point.

Anyway, my feeling, on the whole, is that this study furthers the demonstration, previously only studied in terms of criminal offending, that there are no real similarities between the behaviour patterns of women and men who claim they are women, and indeed, to the contrary, men who claim they are women continue to behave in patterns that are wholly consistent with their sex.

Boulshired · 01/01/2023 09:48

The presence of a large difference of sex workers in the two sub groups interferes with other findings, especially treatment as it’s obvious that a sex worker would be signposted quicker. It’s resulted with a study within a stud.

Etinoxaurus · 01/01/2023 10:20

PriOn1 · 01/01/2023 08:31

I find myself wondering what their aims and expectations were when they started this study.

Were they expecting to find that men who claim they are women are putting themselves at risk the same as other men, or perhaps men who have sex with men? Or were they wondering if/hoping that there was a difference they could highlight?

Was it their sincere aim to study “women” (even if their definition of women is corrupted) or might it be that it has become so normalised in clinical trials and studies to use that corrupted definition that they wanted to highlight that grouping women and men that claim they are women together when claiming to study women is insanity?

has it become ”typical and usual for women to be lumped together with high risk behavioured transwomen in studies?” This is a crucial question. If this has already been normalised in some areas of medical research that these clinicians felt that they needed a study to highlight this flaw to their fellow medics? That might potentially be their aim, in which case, use of the corrupted but normalised language would be essential for them to take the first step in demonstrating how unsafe this was and how much it undermines research on women.

While I agree that use of this corrupted language undermines the credibility of this research and The Lancet, if the authors are working in an area they can see is so corrupted that drawing any attention to it requires this level of game-playing, it might be a necessary starting point.

Anyway, my feeling, on the whole, is that this study furthers the demonstration, previously only studied in terms of criminal offending, that there are no real similarities between the behaviour patterns of women and men who claim they are women, and indeed, to the contrary, men who claim they are women continue to behave in patterns that are wholly consistent with their sex.

It’s evidence that biological sex not gender ID should be at the forefront of health care and education.

ZiriForEver · 01/01/2023 12:55

PriOn1 · 01/01/2023 08:31

I find myself wondering what their aims and expectations were when they started this study.

Were they expecting to find that men who claim they are women are putting themselves at risk the same as other men, or perhaps men who have sex with men? Or were they wondering if/hoping that there was a difference they could highlight?

Was it their sincere aim to study “women” (even if their definition of women is corrupted) or might it be that it has become so normalised in clinical trials and studies to use that corrupted definition that they wanted to highlight that grouping women and men that claim they are women together when claiming to study women is insanity?

has it become ”typical and usual for women to be lumped together with high risk behavioured transwomen in studies?” This is a crucial question. If this has already been normalised in some areas of medical research that these clinicians felt that they needed a study to highlight this flaw to their fellow medics? That might potentially be their aim, in which case, use of the corrupted but normalised language would be essential for them to take the first step in demonstrating how unsafe this was and how much it undermines research on women.

While I agree that use of this corrupted language undermines the credibility of this research and The Lancet, if the authors are working in an area they can see is so corrupted that drawing any attention to it requires this level of game-playing, it might be a necessary starting point.

Anyway, my feeling, on the whole, is that this study furthers the demonstration, previously only studied in terms of criminal offending, that there are no real similarities between the behaviour patterns of women and men who claim they are women, and indeed, to the contrary, men who claim they are women continue to behave in patterns that are wholly consistent with their sex.

This.

There is a mention that previous studies didn't pay much attention to monkeypox in women and if they did mention them, they didn't work properly with women X transwomen.

So this study focuses on the group lost previously (women) and shows that sex really matters when understanding illnesses.
Yes, the new study doesn't call out the (deliberately) confusing terminology, but using "their" terminology it make it harder for gender ID folks to refuse their findings.

nepeta · 02/01/2023 19:17

I read the article. In addition to what has already been discussed here, I noted a possible opening for confusion in how the authors described previously obtained data from an earlier study when using it for comparisons here. For instance:

Although 121 (89%) of the 136 individuals in this global case series reported having sex with men, 59% of cis women and non-binary individuals had a regular male partner, whereas 73% of trans women had multiple male partners.

Trans women, as in the male case series, often had more localised infections with mucocutaneous involvement, not always accompanied by systemic symptoms.

The emphasis on certain words is mine and not in the original. It's hard not to think that the authors are here comparing men as a biological sex (from the earlier study about men having sex with men) with women as an abstract gender identity.

That leaves trans men out completely. We don't know if the "men having sex with men" include trans men having sex with trans men, for instance.

I also think that what is happening here is the usual erasure of all names for the female sex while the male sex is allowed to be called 'men'. This is extremely common now, from the health information pages of the NHS down (I am collecting examples of it).

That the erasure of sex is carried out in such a sexist manner makes me think that the hierarchical nature of the gender system is only going to get worse in this new, brave world.

But mixing together two quite different systems of defining 'men' and 'women' (either sex or abstract identities which not all people have or a mixture of the two systems) is also going to be dangerous in medical applications.

Redebs · 02/01/2023 19:31

If men who identify as trans are labelled as heterosexual when they have sex with men, then any additional risks experienced by msm are going to be dangerously overlooked.

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 03/01/2023 10:34

I wont read the study as it apparently has nsfl pictures and I cant do that.
But reading the bits redtoothbrush and others have posted makes me think this whole study is and always was about men.
Anything in it regarding women appears to be an afterthought. If you read the Twitter linked a page ago, it's the same. And of course as we all know now at least one transwomen identifies as cis. I'm fairly sure some others jumped on that bandwagon too, so actually the entire study could easily be entirely populated by men with any identity.

Plus one reply to the Twitter thread had me howling, you've spelled men wrong, like 47 times.

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