Women's rights general conversations - Thread 2

[Kucingsparkles]

Continuation of Thread 1

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

@Kucingsparkles I preferred the other petition about getting gender ideology out of rse, this is too much baby with the bathwater. I wish we could collect signatures as fast though!

It's really about how it's taught and who influences that teaching. There is obviously some pretty poor curricula and teaching practice out there.

Kucinghitam · Today 08:09

^IcakethereforeIam · Today 00:33
There's a petition calling for the removal of LGBT content from the Relationships Education curriculum. I was wondering about it because it seems to have come from nowhere and flown past 100k and still climbing. Anyway it was tweeted 11 hours ago by a twitter account called 5pillars^.

I wonder if they'd tweet about the Equality Act petition?

Hmm, me personally I wouldn't support such a petition (regardless of the promoters) because I agree with LGB content in RSE/PSHE. I even agree, to a certain extent, with T content - in the sense that adolescents do need to explore their sense of identity and belonging as a normal part of growing up, and so IMO it's actually good to discuss types of identities and groupings.

A lot of the concern in that 5pillars one, and I should think from many other quarters, is especially about primary schools.

I keep reading 5pillars as Spillers, dog biscuits! There is a whiff, possibly undeserved, of homophobia about it.

”5Pillarsuk. A Muslim psychologist says she is determined to keep speaking out about the dangers of Relationship and Sex Education (RSE) teaching in..”

Dr Kate Godfrey-Faussett.

I don't agree with her particular view but judge for yourself.

Also - I know many believers in Islam who would disagree with her too.

All those smug RSOH women should read and ponder on this:

4w.pub/you-meet-more-perverts-when-poor/

That is a really good piece of writing.

Hell yeah.

That is a great piece of writing and so depressing. If she wasn't now "a woman with money" and clearly "a woman with education" that piece would remain unwritten because when you're poor poor you don't know where to write and you might not know how to write something like that.

Trans discussion on R2 right now with Jeremy Vine.

It's a powerful piece, alright.

I got this from The Telegraph which I subscribed to in order to be more aware of "the other side". Good news for once! The precis is the Science Museum had a trans inclusive display, people complained because it isn't science, it was removed.

And that's the thing isn't it? It isn't science. It's an ideology at best, at worst it's a cult. Thank goodness for reality and although it worries me that the Science Museum had this display in the first place, I'm so glad that they listened to complaints and that people had the courage to complain. I feel Stonewall's influence in the decision to have the display.
Trans inclusive display removed after complaints

@CharitySchmarity - "Let's face it, neither a post-op F2M nor a post-op M2F is as much of a threat to women as some people who claim to be pre-op M2F might occasionally be."

This is true, but 95% of M2F don't have that op. Statistically transwomen retain the same patterns of offending as men. How do you suggest we go about safeguarding women in women-only spaces given that context?

PoppySeedBagelRedux· Today 12:10
All those smug RSOH women should read and ponder on this:

4w.pub/you-meet-more-perverts-when-poor/

That is a powerful article with an essential message. Thank you for posting it.

I appear to have posted on the wrong thread. Apologies.

From that 4Wpub. article PoppySeed posted:

The young women who run the United Nations Twitter account, or the girlboss Minister for Gender Equality (the one with pronouns in her bio)

By the girlboss Minister for Gender Equality, I take it she means Kemi Badenoch. It is a bit worrying to think she ‘has pronouns’.

In the hope that this petition from Sex Matters will get across to her how important it is to update the Equality Act to make clear that sex is biological sex, not sex as modified by a gender recognition certificate, please consider signing if you have not already done it.
⬇️
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

Words and their definitions matter. I was unhappy the other night on the BBC news when they did an (otherwise decent) piece on those census stats, and talked about people 'changing sex'. You can't change sex. But it seems that for some TRAs, muddying the waters between 'gender' and 'sex' is half the objective.

Britinme · Today 14:27
@CharitySchmarity - "Let's face it, neither a post-op F2M nor a post-op M2F is as much of a threat to women as some people who claim to be pre-op M2F might occasionally be."

This is true, but 95% of M2F don't have that op. Statistically transwomen retain the same patterns of offending as men. How do you suggest we go about safeguarding women in women-only spaces given that context?

Interestingly, on Keep Prisons Single sex somewhere on their site there is the information from a Swedish survey carried out as an investigation into offending rates of people who have had reassignment surgery. (It did not investigate rape specifically but did include violent crime.)
Transgender mtf natal men, who had had reassignment surgery, had the same offending rates as ordinary men.

Ftm transgender natal women though, had higher offending rates than ordinary women (testosterone?).

Seriously, what is it with Ben and Jerry's?

I assumed girlboss Minister for Gender Equality referred tot eh chair of the Women and Equalities Committee. Noakes seems more likely to pronoun than Badenoch.

Stop verbing pronouning!

This is true, but 95% of M2F don't have that op. Statistically transwomen retain the same patterns of offending as men. How do you suggest we go about safeguarding women in women-only spaces given that context?

I don't claim to have the answer to that. My point is purely about post-op, and that if anyone is prepared to go that far in order to live as the opposite sex, their motivation for doing so was probably not to gain access to women in women-only spaces in order to attack them.

Pre-op, it's a very difficult issue but I guess we have to not give them the benefit of the doubt. I would argue that anyone who claims to be a transwoman purely for gain or to do harm is not a true transwoman at all, but there's no real way of telling until it's too late, or until they go all the way and have surgery.

As it happens, this earlier exchange between those two popped up on my Twitter feed again today:

"How are you defining trans?" is a cracker.

My point is purely about post-op, and that if anyone is prepared to go that far in order to live as the opposite sex, their motivation for doing so was probably not to gain access to women in women-only spaces in order to attack them.

Sure, this could shift the odds, in that suddenly you're talking about a real commitment - you're going to get fewer random chancers.

But from a practical policy view, there's nothing you can do with that. As I understand it, international law prevents you having rights contingent upon having undergone elective surgery. You can't have incentives for self-harm.

So you can't legally have special rights for men who chop their bits off that you don't offer to men who don't.