Women's rights general conversations - Thread 2

[Kucingsparkles]

Continuation of Thread 1

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Have just stuck my head over the parapet at work and objected to the use of both cis and AFAB.

There are a few articles in today's online Guardian that are interesting. One about safeguarding shortcomings at after school clubs, out of school settings and the like. Some of the failings mentioned will be very familiar to posters on FWR. Settle is trying to sue SM because children have poor mental health and then there's this one

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/08/young-people-bodies-capitalism-fat-cellulite

That's brave!

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn what was the context? I keep expecting the terms to come up at university but so far so good. Even the short course I did on women’s healthcare recently was thankfully spared.

That Zoe Williams article that makes a lot of sense.

Too many that's. You know what I mean. Damn the lack of an edit button.

That's pretty much what the bot said too 😆

Context is a tricky one because it's about risk levels for a hormone-related disease, so we do need the reader to be absolutely clear about which group is what and can't assume they will read 'women' as meaning only actual women. And we do need to be absolutely neutral in the language.

The writer has used a mix of cis and AFAB. The person I've spoken to so far agreed on avoiding cis but didn't know AFAB was controversial. He was fine - as I expected he would be - but it's going to be part of a conversation that could go all the way to the top and I'm less sure about the views of some of the others who will be involved.

The ZW article, so far as I know (and I'd love to be wrong) she is fully tra. Twaw, children should be affirmed. So there seems to be an element of cognitive dissonance. Even the bit about NB children being especially vulnerable to mental health difficulties. I'd interpret that as a symptom. She doesn't seem to.

So there seems to be an element of cognitive dissonance.

IME that's always the case with the BeKind-TRSOHers (as opposed to the full-on TRAs, or the men-who-just-live-putting-women-in-their-placers).

BTW, if anyone has ideas for the best terms for women-who-are-actually-women (and men likewise) that won't be objectionable to either side, I'm all ears.

Adult Human Female?

Homo sapiens of the body plan evolved around the production of large immotile gametes?

Woman.

We need to keep pushing back on this. Males with a feminine gender identity may be called 'transwomen'. Perfectly clear and logical.

I have come to feel that it has to be transwomen all one word to make it very clear that it isn't a subcategory of women, but something different and not relevant to women's medical issues or discussions of same, but that transmen, also all one word, might helpfully be explicitly included.

Woman get my vote and transwoman all one word to describe men who want to be us.

Just caught up and seen there is now three posts in a row saying the same exact thing😁

Cos they is right, innit? As Erroll says, it needs push-back.

I vote for transwoman all one word.

AFAB and AMAB are horrible weasel terms too, don't like to see them getting 'official' currency.

Yes I hate that too. Assigned means somebody makes a decision that could be arbitrary. Observed means that's what is apparent on the basis of the vast majority of people's experience . There is a tiny number of people with a DSD but that becomes apparent later.

In theory I'm with you on 'just use woman', but in practice that will not fly in this circumstance. And given that it's publishing before the end of the week I don't have time to change the whole of society to make it work- so, seriously, I need suggestions.

(Also, a hard agree on transwoman rather than trans woman but I may have to let that go for now.)

How about women* and in tiny writing at the end, ‘biological females’?

How about natal woman?

Or a ‘note on terminology’ at the beginning that the word Women refers to biological females?