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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Secretary of State for Scotland looking at using Westminster powers to overule gender recognition bill

258 replies

fromorbit · 22/12/2022 15:55

Alister Jack has said he is willing to consider blocking the Gender Recognition Reform Bill under Section 35 of the Scotland Act.
twitter.com/JournoStephen

Detailed Review of the Legal case that powers that could be used:
ukconstitutionallaw.org/2022/12/21/michael-foran-sex-gender-and-the-scotland-act/

In short it seems there are potential good grounds to use Section 35 in this case due to contradictions in the legislation. [Lots of speculation that this was this Sturgeon's aim all along create legislation so bad it would be overturned and increase support for Indy? However I think this is just a case of pure ideology combined with incompetence.]

Writing into your MP especially if they are a Tory would be a good move at this point.

OP posts:
Datun · 23/12/2022 03:45

Charley50 · 22/12/2022 22:37

There is a document called Denton's document www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

gendercriticalwoman.blog/2020/07/23/that-dentons-document/

Trans ideology was put into place secretly by piggybacking parasitically onto other movements (e.g. LGB see Stonewall, same-sex marriage in Ireland). It's proponents were encouraged to join organisations as board level and in positions of authority to infiltrate and influence.

It's slogan was 'No debate' and we were all supposed to think 'oh of course 'people are trans, get over it.' Of course 'No Debate.'
BBC, Channel 4 and the Guardian do not report it in any critical way, so it goes under the radar for many people.

Stonewall turned from an LGB org to a 'trans' org in 2015, but until very recently was still seen as the leading LGB organisation in the UK.

Trans groups have been lobbying parliaments for the last few years.

It's funded by some US billionaires, some trans some not, who own pharmaceutical companies and have a vested interest in 'transing' children and young people as there is so much money to be made from it.

www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2020/01/the-billionaires-behind-the-lgbt-movement

It's all really sinister.

Show quote history

@SirChenjins

See this ^ post re leaked dentons report.

Lumping the T in with the LGB was a deliberate strategy to capitalise on the goodwill of progressives towards the LGB community and also exploit the residual guilt of those opposed to same sex marriage, etc.

The T is nothing to do with LGB and, in fact, it claims that homosexuality doesn't exist.

Stonewall called lesbians 'sexual racists' for excluding men. It's profoundly homophobic.

ResisterRex · 23/12/2022 06:54

rogdmum · 22/12/2022 22:48

Also from Resister’s Telegraph article:

”Scottish Labour Constitution spokesperson Sarah Boyack MSP said talk of triggering Section 35 was an “unwelcome intervention from a Secretary of State who seems to be considering riding roughshod over devolution.”

That will be the same Sarah Boyack who flat out refused to meet me as a constituent to discuss my concerns.

Rogdmum Flowers

ResisterRex · 23/12/2022 06:55

Rubidium · 22/12/2022 23:17

Kemi Badenoch’s statement:
twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1606053418182709250

“The Scottish government has not addressed the full implications of their bill...the UK government is now looking at provisions that can prompt reconsideration and allow MSPs to address these issues"

This is worth reading in full. It's very carefully worded and seems encouraging

MarshaBradyo · 23/12/2022 06:58

dcbc1234 · 22/12/2022 21:53

I am totally against Independence anyway but this should not be a consideration.
What point is there in staying in the UK, if the UK Government doesn't protect British citizens when a devolved administration overreaches (for whatever reason)?
Scottish voters want the UK Government to restore common sense - look at the polls. There is little political risk to intervening.
The idiots in this are the Labour Party. This would be easy votes for them from former SNP voters, if they properly supported sex-based rights and child protection. They are a lost cause and in Scotland totally spineless.

Show quote history

Yes they are spineless idiots. Probably the same as here.

I’m glad the polls show that. I’m aware that there is a feeling that WM should stay away on some issues but if this isn’t one of them then maybe both things can go the way I prefer

SerotinaPickeler · 23/12/2022 07:03

DameMaud · 22/12/2022 22:53

Sorry my post was supposed to quote a post about joining WRN

I tried to get on board with WRN in their early days via twitter but was told I didn't have the right history of twitter activism (I am no longer on twitter because its a cesspit). So they told me I needed to prove my worthiness first. Seems I was the wrong kind of woman for them.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/12/2022 07:22

SerotinaPickeler · 23/12/2022 07:03

I tried to get on board with WRN in their early days via twitter but was told I didn't have the right history of twitter activism (I am no longer on twitter because its a cesspit). So they told me I needed to prove my worthiness first. Seems I was the wrong kind of woman for them.

Show quote history

I’m not involved with the WRN, but I can imagine that any GC women’s network would have would have to be careful about who joined, to protect other members from doxing and abuse.

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:05

The Kemi statement is clever. Not opposing the decision itself, but essentially offering the role of a second chamber, sending something back for reconsideration. It happens to legislation originating in the House of Commons. Why not to a devolved parliament.

One weird thing. A quick skim through MailOnline an hour ago had a dozen or so stories about this, including comment from one of the Tory MSPs, which I went back to find so I could link here. Everything has gone from the feed. Not one story. I assume editors are sat in a meeting right now discussing how to play it. It will be an important story for the Mail, as they have a separate paper in Scotland, don’t like Nicola and have been consistent on gender issues. They will not want to overplay their hand as it will be important, as it looks as if this story will be running for a long time, not to over play their hand but to present their view as moderate and reasonable.

nilsmousehammer · 23/12/2022 08:08

God.

When you have to tactically and reasonably and moderately present 'we don't hate women and wish to embed male supremacism in law'.

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:21

SirChenjins, I have tended to delve deep into my past to reference J S Mill’s on Liberty, which holds that a person should be left as free to pursue his own interests as long as this does not harm the interests of others. It seems to work as an argument.

Homosexuality does not impact others. Privacy of your own bedroom etc. Gender ideology does. The Stonewall “no debate” policy was ridiculous. Women had an absolute right to raise possible harms to them from the implementation of this ideology, as part of a respectful societal debate.

On Liberty was written over 150 years ago but the Wiki synopsis is well worth a read.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty#:~:text=On%20Liberty%20is%20a%20philosophical,relationship%20between%20authority%20and%20liberty.

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:23

nilmouse…how many times have you seen on MN…but it’s just the DM, they would say that wouldn’t they.

Everyone is going to be careful in this. Especially Kemi, the DM and others who know they are right, but don’t want to add flame to the tinderbox.

ResisterRex · 23/12/2022 08:25

@Needmoresleep I think there is a Scottish Daily Mail. Also have you tried the previous URL in archive or the wayback?

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:25

Sorry last post written too quickly. They know they have a good argument but they need to tread carefully to ensure that argument is heard not drowned out by calls of “transphobia”.

justasking111 · 23/12/2022 08:29

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:05

The Kemi statement is clever. Not opposing the decision itself, but essentially offering the role of a second chamber, sending something back for reconsideration. It happens to legislation originating in the House of Commons. Why not to a devolved parliament.

One weird thing. A quick skim through MailOnline an hour ago had a dozen or so stories about this, including comment from one of the Tory MSPs, which I went back to find so I could link here. Everything has gone from the feed. Not one story. I assume editors are sat in a meeting right now discussing how to play it. It will be an important story for the Mail, as they have a separate paper in Scotland, don’t like Nicola and have been consistent on gender issues. They will not want to overplay their hand as it will be important, as it looks as if this story will be running for a long time, not to over play their hand but to present their view as moderate and reasonable.

It behoves the daily mail to remember that most of their online advertising is directed at women

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:32

Resister, I am sure I can find the articles. The point is more, why have the DM pulled them all from the feed. Ie from where people might see them. They will be back, the Mail will cover the story. It will be interesting to see the approach they take. An example of this was when Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party. The Mail were strangely silent. Possibly because he was too easy a target so attacks might be perceived as aggressive. It is important on gender issues that the Mail is able to use its platform for womens voices to be heard. Rather than the whole thing to become some nasty shouty contest.

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:36

Justasking you are not wrong. I wonder how the editors meeting is going at the Guardian. Double down and risk losing more moderate readers who belatedly realise reading the Guardian means you are uninformed about an important issue/debate. Or start trying to win back left of centre readers from the right of centre papers.

justasking111 · 23/12/2022 08:36

Back in the eighties a surgeon we called miss Evans pioneered gender reassignment surgery at our hospital, she was renowned worldwide, her operations watched by many young surgeons. We were very proud of the work she did in N Wales.

Our neighbour in the village was one of her patients, we were happy that they were finally able to feel they were in the right body. She was in her fifties.

I wonder what changed.

SirChenjins · 23/12/2022 08:41

Just coming back to this thread - thanks so much to everyone who responded to my earlier question re gay persecution (which I hope didn't come across as a hijack - sincere apologies if it did). A lot of excellent advice Smile

ResisterRex · 23/12/2022 08:42

Needmoresleep there's an article that's the second one down that I can see. Is this the one?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11568771/SNPs-trans-bill-spark-gender-tourism-Scotland.html

Original poster
fromorbit · 23/12/2022 08:48

>>> The SNP would appear to have more sane MSPs than Scottish Labour. Admittedly 7 isn't very many, but it's a damned sight more than 0.

There were Labour rebels.

Carol Mochan and Claire Baker were two Labour MSPs who defied the whip and voted against it.
Pauline McNeil and Michael Marra were two Labour MSPs who abstained.

There three Tories who voted for.

The problem is in ALL the parties, the resistance is in all the parties. The question is can we get enough power to fight back.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:49

No, that has just returned. Earlier this morning there were about a dozen articles including a good one by a Tory MSP and another by a Glasgow law lecturer.

The DM feed seems to work on algorithm so a hot story and too many articles clogging the top of the feed makes the DM appear obsessive. They don’t like Nicola, but this is bad legislation and an interesting constitutional issue. I assume they will not want their reporting to come across as vindictive and “get Nicola”.

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:57

fromorbit, Labour and SNP were whipped, so those defying face sanctions. Tories voted as they wanted and fell roughly in line with the population. I assume this would have also happened had SNP and Labour allowed similar freedoms. Especially on the reasonable amendments. One of the Tories spoke about it being important to him that the Conservatives were the Rainbow party. In an odd way, good on him for sticking to his beliefs …even if he is wrong

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/12/2022 09:42

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 08:36

Justasking you are not wrong. I wonder how the editors meeting is going at the Guardian. Double down and risk losing more moderate readers who belatedly realise reading the Guardian means you are uninformed about an important issue/debate. Or start trying to win back left of centre readers from the right of centre papers.

I think the Guardian has chosen its path and will be sticking to it. They allow the Observer (same owner, different editor) to take a slightly more gender-critical line, to create a veneer of balance.

ResisterRex · 23/12/2022 09:43

Rachel Maclean retweets Kemi:

https://twitter.com/redditchrachel/status/1606185215994474496?s=46&t=Yj8z8TU27SMTRhxu1Eywpg

"I share these concerns and the impact of this legislation on the safety of women and girls across the UK. Rushing through this legislation which could herald life changing impacts on children as young as 16 is a mistake and I’m glad the UK government is considering its approach."

Previous posts include Safeguarding and Victims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RachelMacleann_(politician)

BlackForestCake · 23/12/2022 09:47

I have no sympathy for SNP/Labour whining about an attack on devolution, and I was an indy supporter.

Yes, it is an attack on devolution. You provoked it with your attack on women and your attack on reality.

Needmoresleep · 23/12/2022 09:58

It looks as if the approach (assuming the DM is being briefed by the Tories) is that this legislation affects England. English 16 year olds can run off to Gretna and change their birth certificates, and lord knows what happens to self ID’d sex offenders who request transfers south, or indeed national statistics/equality objectives. Westminster needs to act to protect the English, who have had no say in this process.

Nicola will presumably find a way, but it may be difficult for her to argue that laws that affect England can be passed in Edinburgh. Especially without proper consultation with Whitehall.