Redefinition of 'Woman'

[InterestingUsernameTBC]

So this has been swirling round in my head for a bit and I thought I'd put it down here and see if anyone has any comments.

In order for women to accept a male as a woman they have to redefine what it is to be a woman in his image.

It seems to me that some women say, that's fine. I'm happy to accept your redefinition. That doesn't contradict my own identity as a woman. We're both women, you're a trans woman and I'm a cis woman.

And then there are others who say, I accept your redefinition of what a woman is but it doesn't fit with my identity as a woman so I must be non binary or a trans man.

And then there are women who say fuck off. I'm not redefining what it is to be a woman to suit any man. But how do these women hold onto their sense of self in a society that is seeking to redefine their identity and the language they use to describe it?

Why is the chromosome thing never brought into this?

Two x's = woman, end of.

Rogersornanismicprocess 💐

💐@RogersOrganismicProcess

@RedToothBrush amazing post 👏👏👏

The words are just the mechanism, a means to an end.

They don't really care about the words per se. It's the thing the words are describing that's the issue.

First it was "woman", now it's "female", and if we decided to henceforth call ourselves "flurdlegarbles", they would claim to be flurdlegarbles.

They don't want us to have a word that only describes women because men want in the group, and they'll attempt to violate that boundary whether the word is "woman", "female", "flurdlegarble" or anything else.

The word "woman" is taken. The word "female" is taken.

I hat the things you say, @RedToothBrush , but you are always so darn right. It's terrifying.

As for the three groups, OP- I'm comfortably in the 3rd group, and I give no shits about what men say. They can claim my name, claim my language and my words, but they can't hold them. BUT- I've had 45 years of my words being uncontested. That's a strong, bedrock foundation.

Young women today haven't had that luxury. They are growing up without the certainty that their physical, sexed body determines much of who they are and can ever be, amd that there are words which apply only to them. They are the ones who are vulnerable, and they are the ones who are losing their sense of self. If they don't identify with the male sexual fantasy that is 'WOMAN', they think they must be something else, perhaps non binary, perhaps transmale. They are the ones we need to support.

It won't work because the whole point for that group of males is to claim that they are in fact women in the same way biological women are women. That's why they do things like claim to menstruate.

The whole psychology is around actually being female, and other people believing that.

Didn't that happen though already and a man who was the child's father took it to court to be called mother on the birth certificate? I'm sure I read it somewhere, I can't remember what the outcome was. I will see if I can find it.

But if I'm mistaken and this didn't happen already, I bet it will soon.

Probably the easiest thing to do would be to cede the word ‘woman’
LOL
Because there are more important things at stake.
Unbelievable
It might if boundaries are set before the definition was used. And also who it excludes.
Boundaries are set with the word woman already!
I swear there's something, in the water, people are nuts.

@InterestingUsernameTBC ~- "And then it is decided that a woman can be male or female"

But it hasn't been decided. Not by me, not by the majority of women. Only decided by "men who live as women" and by a minority of women. But their opinion doesn't count in my world. I have been a "woman" for the last 45 years. Not a "ciswoman", just a "woman" And i have at no point felt the need to question that label or to "hold on to my sense of self"

Who the fuck knows. I mean that's it isn't it. That's the basic of basic biology for what sex you are.

I just didn't think this was a position we'd be in in this day and age.

@Abccde

I found two!

ukhumanrightsblog.com/2020/05/05/transgender-man-correctly-registered-as-mother-on-childs-birth-certificate/amp/

legalresearch.blogs.bris.ac.uk/2020/11/whos-the-mummy-or-daddy-or-parent-trans-parents-law-identity-and-birth-registration-in-england-and-wales/

Because if your sense of self includes the knowledge that you are a woman due to being an adult female human. And then it is decided that a woman can be male or female then what is a woman? What are you if there is no word for a female adult human?

You are still a woman. A small, albeit vociferous, group doesn't get to say that 'it is decided that a woman can be male or female'. Tbh I can't say that all of this has had the slightest effect on my sense of self, because it's all so obviously bollocks... as it were

Thus if you destroy the word women and therefore the concept of women, you isolate women from being a collective group. They can't gather. They can't share ideas. They can't create a sense of identify. And this is the purpose.

Thank you RTB - brilliant post.

The word woman is taken - has been for ever and is not up for negotiation. No man will ever gestate a child & give birth, or share the unique and at times painful aspects of being a woman. We can share humanity & personhood - but being a woman is a distinct biological category and experience.

Frankly they can all FOTTFSOFATFOSM.

I was heartened today when I was out in a town centre today talking to passers by. The number of women and men that already knew and understood the impacts of the laws being changed and who were concerned. I only had one person say they disagreed.

And this was a mix of ages too. A young women initially told me she believed males could be women and should be treated like women. Except when I asked her about rape centres, she said no, not there. When I asked her about sport, she said, no not sport either. When I asked her about female prisons, she also said no males at all. She ended up walking away admitting that she needed to do more reading and more thinking.

I had two different occasions when young men I had chats with told me about males in women’s sports. They both mentioned the names of Thomas and Hubbard. One mentioned Bridges.

We KNOW it is a small but loud group in the population who support this ideological thinking. I saw that reaffirmed today.

@MrsOvertonsWindow

i'm not very good with the abbreviations here. So what is FOTTFSOFATFOSM? I got the first 7 letters, can't work out the rest of it.

What about using cis women as the term? I know we all hate it but it is the one term trans people accept they don't belong in.

@User77765

The point is this though. Why should the majority of women change the label that they've always had just because a small minority of men/women decide they should.

They shouldn't - it was just a thought in response to earlier pps discussing different terms. Cis seems to be the only thing trans people understand.

ok, sorry @User77765 i misunderstood your view.

If the trans community are allowed to decide how to refer to me (eg cis-woman), then why can i not decide how to refer to them (eg men living as women)?

Surely it has to work both ways. It really annoys me that this is all so one-sided.

What about using cis women as the term? I know we all hate it but it is the one term trans people accept they don't belong in.

Nope. India Willoughby (and maybe others) have said they're 'Cis women'.

I'm a woman. No male is. Period.

It's an old mumsnet classic comment (being the site that allows women to swear 😃)
Fuck Off To The Far Side Of Fuck And Then Fuck Off Some More

TofuonToast · Today 19:27
But what if a totally new word was used with upfront biological boundaries. Large gamates etc. strip it of any sociological nonsense upfront

I have been looking it up in dictionaries: ‘woman’ meant an adult female; and female absolutely was/is defined in terms of biological boundaries - using the words ‘begets young’ and relatively ‘large gametes’.

It was never defined sociologically as a first meaning. (2nd meanings included wife, lady.) That didn’t stop it being purloined by men and their allies to mean men who ‘feel’ they are a woman.

They simply scream and shout and say the only meaning in a word is the meaning you want it to have. Institutional capture backs them up.

I feel fury if I hear ‘Cis’ woman. Transwomen can call themselves non-cis men if they want but cis has nothing to do with women.

It is interesting that India Willoughby has said they are a cis woman

Because there are a few, extremely rare DSDs (disorders of sex development) where the simple XX /XY doesn't apply. However, it's nothing whatever to do with being trans, and people with DSDs will be diagnosed and are still either a man or a woman.