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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Redefinition of 'Woman'

110 replies

InterestingUsernameTBC · 18/12/2022 19:02

So this has been swirling round in my head for a bit and I thought I'd put it down here and see if anyone has any comments.

In order for women to accept a male as a woman they have to redefine what it is to be a woman in his image.

It seems to me that some women say, that's fine. I'm happy to accept your redefinition. That doesn't contradict my own identity as a woman. We're both women, you're a trans woman and I'm a cis woman.

And then there are others who say, I accept your redefinition of what a woman is but it doesn't fit with my identity as a woman so I must be non binary or a trans man.

And then there are women who say fuck off. I'm not redefining what it is to be a woman to suit any man. But how do these women hold onto their sense of self in a society that is seeking to redefine their identity and the language they use to describe it?

OP posts:
TofuonToast · 18/12/2022 19:49

Abccde · 18/12/2022 19:46

They don't want woman now. They consider that battle one.

They want female. Because we can still differentiate ourselves by saying female.

Next They will be after mother. They will be demanding they are mother on a child's birth certificate.

Sick isn’t it?

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 18/12/2022 19:51

TofuonToast · 18/12/2022 19:14

It might if boundaries are set before the definition was used. And also who it excludes.

Well I'm old enough (and pedantic enough) to remember that particular peace settlement. We could give them the word 'woman' because if and when we needed to we could always just use the word 'female' - I didn't love it but I was pre peak and thought hmm yeah I guess that's fair. Lasted less than 6 months before I first saw someone saying using the word female was hateful and exclusionary etc. And people were apparently identifying as female or male.

So now I've retrenched to ladylike - some women are lovely ladies, but not all women, women do not have to be lovely ladies. Some men are very ladylike, and I'm ok with that. A man can tell me he feels like he is a lovely ladee, I reserve my right to form my own opinion of him based on his behaviour. If he does not behave in a lovely fashion I will not think of him as lovely.

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:52

What utter nonsense OP! I don’t identify as a woman, I AM a woman.

And no, I will not allow these men to have ‘woman’, nor ‘female’, nor even transwomen. They are in no way, shape of form any type of women.

As we’ve seen, if you give them an inch, they take a mile!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/12/2022 19:53

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:52

What utter nonsense OP! I don’t identify as a woman, I AM a woman.

And no, I will not allow these men to have ‘woman’, nor ‘female’, nor even transwomen. They are in no way, shape of form any type of women.

As we’ve seen, if you give them an inch, they take a mile!

👆🏻 this!

Abccde · 18/12/2022 19:55

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:52

What utter nonsense OP! I don’t identify as a woman, I AM a woman.

And no, I will not allow these men to have ‘woman’, nor ‘female’, nor even transwomen. They are in no way, shape of form any type of women.

As we’ve seen, if you give them an inch, they take a mile!

I got told yesterday (by a male) on another platform that my gender was not woman because I don't identify as one.

Fuck me, maybe I should tell my body that every fucking month.

I'm of the age where menopause will hit me in the next few years. They will probably consider that they are more of a woman than me after that.

InterestingUsernameTBC · 18/12/2022 19:56

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:52

What utter nonsense OP! I don’t identify as a woman, I AM a woman.

And no, I will not allow these men to have ‘woman’, nor ‘female’, nor even transwomen. They are in no way, shape of form any type of women.

As we’ve seen, if you give them an inch, they take a mile!

It would seem then that you are in the third group of women that I identified in my OP.

OP posts:
DialSquare · 18/12/2022 19:57

I've always thought that attempting to redefine woman is an own goal for the TRAs. If anyone can be a woman, what are they identifying with? What would be the point?

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:58

Oh they are ridiculous @Abccde ! They just make up stuff and redefine things on a whim!

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:58

InterestingUsernameTBC · 18/12/2022 19:56

It would seem then that you are in the third group of women that I identified in my OP.

Yes!

InterestingUsernameTBC · 18/12/2022 20:02

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:58

Yes!

And would you not agree that the other two groups do exist? I'm not sure what about my post you found to be 'utter nonsense'?

OP posts:
howdoesatoastermaketoast · 18/12/2022 20:02

@TofuonToast

I get where you're coming from but I don't believe the other side is operating in good faith in all cases. They're already fighting against us being able to use female, or biological woman etc. I don't think it's an issue of which words are used it's the act of referring to ourselves at all that they disapprove of.

"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man. You take a step towards him, he takes a step back. "Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man." (A.R. Moxon)

waterwitch · 18/12/2022 20:08

Yes, it’s not the word they want, it’s the concept. If women (however named) are different then TW are NOT women - which everyone and his dog knows to be the case anyway 🤷‍♀️

WildIris · 18/12/2022 20:08

InterestingUsernameTBC · 18/12/2022 20:02

And would you not agree that the other two groups do exist? I'm not sure what about my post you found to be 'utter nonsense'?

With regards to your first group, it makes no sense because men cannot be woman. If a man puts on a dress, that’s all he is - a man in a dress.

Your second group I didn’t completely understand because non binary is meaningless and again, transman doesn’t work because people can’t change their sex. Could you explain this group a bit more, please?

MyCrumpetIsCold · 18/12/2022 20:09

They can have ‘transwoman’ (one word, not two) as far as I’m concerned. The words ‘woman’ and ‘female’ - and ‘lesbian’ for that matter - already refer to specific types of human people, and none of them are bepenised. I’m not budging on that, consider me in the ‘fuck off’ group.

purpledalmation · 18/12/2022 20:10

I'm a woman. My lovely friend who is a trans woman is a trans woman. I wish she was still a man as she does not make an attractive woman but was an attractive man. Superficial I know.

SammyScrounge · 18/12/2022 20:16

Syrax · 18/12/2022 19:45

Wow. Ok.

Given the word woman

  1. Used to afford sex based protections
  2. Has been re-defined to mean basically anyone who fancies using it

Why on earth would anyone think just coming up with a new word would have a different outcome? The mind boggles.

Oh… and why the fuck should we?

Biological men living a fantasy can redefine what they like but the huge bulk of society will not accept it. They can present a man with.a beard and boy bits as a woman
No one but other fantasist will believe them

InterestingUsernameTBC · 18/12/2022 20:18

waterwitch · 18/12/2022 20:08

Yes, it’s not the word they want, it’s the concept. If women (however named) are different then TW are NOT women - which everyone and his dog knows to be the case anyway 🤷‍♀️

it’s not the word they want, it’s the concept

Very succinct

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/12/2022 20:25

But how do these women hold onto their sense of self in a society that is seeking to redefine their identity and the language they use to describe it?

They can't. But they do not necessarily understand what they are losing.

The purpose of totalitarianism is to obliterate the truth by making it impossible to identify it, name it and define it.

By making people repeat what they know not to be true - how many fingers am I holding Winston - you destroy the spirit and the ability to think of those who comply.

Its not only Orwell who talks about this a lot at length, but also Hannah Arendt when she wrote about Totalitarianism.

I encourage people to read up on Arendt's teaching on this. Not necessarily to read her books but at least find out about the principles she writes about and how it's power is designed to destroy the very concept of 'self'.

Its interesting that Arendt observes that loneliness is a precondition for totalitarian domination, with people who are socially isolated more likely to be attracted to totalitarian ideology and movements. This is similar to cults which are essentially would be totalitarian thinking. So people who don't feel like they belong and want to are drawn to these ideologies. And their goals is not to help people belong, but to actually crystallise the occasional experience of loneliness into a permanent state of being.

Thus if you destroy the word women and therefore the concept of women, you isolate women from being a collective group. They can't gather. They can't share ideas. They can't create a sense of identify. And this is the purpose.

This destroys collective power. It destroys a shared identity and isolates individuals. Except women saying this don't realise what they are giving up. They think they are joining a collective club and being accepted. The invisibility of what they are surrendering in doing so is sinister. Women don't want to rock the boat and be shunned for not agreeing with TWAW but in doing so they give up their power and identity without realising it. By the time they do, they are isolated because power has made it so they will 'go back to the loneliness' and not have a tribe to below to.

Or that's the idea.

Why do TRAs attack women's gatherings that stress a collective identity of women and the concept of sex so much. I mean it's 'only' a showing of a film to a small room full of women about adult human females?

Because asserting your own identity rather than having it imposed is the point here. They know it because they seek to destroy reality and the concept of self in women and make them subservient.

Arendt says: The trouble with lying and deceiving is that their efficiency depends entirely upon a clear notion of the truth that the liar and deceiver wishes to hide.

Sex can never be hidden. We all understand it.

The entire point here is about the power to speak this, to express a sense of self which reflects the truth and the power to get others to repeat the lie they know to be false as if it is truth because this is the ultimate expression of helplessness.

It is all about power and control.

Women who can not define themselves on their own terms because men dictate to them that it is 'unkind' to do so are enslaved to the ideology. They do so because they fear they will be isolated, yet the purpose of the language is to isolate them and to prevent them from identifying on their own terms. This matters because you cannot name male violence. You can not identify sexism. You can not demonstrate injustice and lack of representation of women. These all remove power. It's everything from pointing out that mobile phone sizes are designs for male dimensions to the rape of women in prisons by already known sexual predators...

InterestingUsernameTBC · 18/12/2022 20:30

WildIris · 18/12/2022 20:08

With regards to your first group, it makes no sense because men cannot be woman. If a man puts on a dress, that’s all he is - a man in a dress.

Your second group I didn’t completely understand because non binary is meaningless and again, transman doesn’t work because people can’t change their sex. Could you explain this group a bit more, please?

The idea expressed by the first group might not make any sense to you but there are definitely women who seem to think like this. Ditto for group 2. I don't know why the third group doesn't encompass all women but it doesn't. And given this situation I'm asking what do women in group 3 do about this? When there are so many others in society expressing otherwise, how do we hold onto the idea that a woman is an adult human female?

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/12/2022 20:39

that is a brilliantly devastating post @RedToothBrush

also contrary to the endless propagated TRA lie, most people don’t believe men can become women. Most ppl believe that ppl should be allowed to express their gender however they want & not suffer for it. However most ppl do not believe men can become women and the more the reality is pointed out to them eg the vast majority of TW retain their penis, the numbers of ppl agreeing TWAW drops dramatically

so I don’t agree the most people think we’ve lost the word woman and should just give up

hallouminatus · 18/12/2022 20:42

TofuonToast · 18/12/2022 19:10

Probably the easiest thing to do would be to cede the word ‘woman’ sad come up with a new word that means biological woman and base policy on that.
I can imagine how this idea is going to go down on here!

Even the most committed genderists must know that if they successfully changed the accepted meaning of "woman", they would need a replacement for "woman" in its traditional sense. However, their term, "AFAB", is so inextricably linked to gender ideology that it will never be adopted except by adherents of genderism. I've not heard, and don't expect to hear, anyone argueing for AFAB rights or AFAB-only spaces, for example, because people who care about those things will not accept the loss of the word "woman", or the nonsense of "assignment at birth".

Rowthe · 18/12/2022 20:49

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:52

What utter nonsense OP! I don’t identify as a woman, I AM a woman.

And no, I will not allow these men to have ‘woman’, nor ‘female’, nor even transwomen. They are in no way, shape of form any type of women.

As we’ve seen, if you give them an inch, they take a mile!

👏

FOJN · 18/12/2022 20:55

It might if boundaries are set before the definition was used. And also who it excludes.

Biology has already set the boundary on the meaning of woman and it excludes anyone who is male.

It's not working out so well for us at the moment so I can't imagine take 2 would be any better because patriarchy.

Musomama1 · 18/12/2022 20:57

WildIris · 18/12/2022 19:52

What utter nonsense OP! I don’t identify as a woman, I AM a woman.

And no, I will not allow these men to have ‘woman’, nor ‘female’, nor even transwomen. They are in no way, shape of form any type of women.

As we’ve seen, if you give them an inch, they take a mile!

I feel that way too. Woman is a reality based term - get the fuck away from it. But going forward, how can I call a cross dressing man like Eddie Izzard a transwoman?

I just can't do it.

RogersOrganismicProcess · 18/12/2022 21:06

When I think back to when I was stood by my baby daughters grave as the soil was being shovelled on top of her I recall the cruel physical reality of my breasts leaking milk, and my uterus cramping and pouring with blood. I have no recollection of what I was wearing, how I’d done my hair, or even if I had done my hair. My experience was 100% female, 100% based on a physical reaction. I couldn’t give a shiny shite about how I expressed my womanhood, or whether people were acknowledging womanhood in me. The insulting thing is, by belittling ‘woman’/‘female’ to image based stereotypes the physical suffering that women go through, daily, because of their biology is also belittled. Womanhood isn’t all giggles and glamour, it is bloody, raw and painful.