Disc Golf (?) has banned transgender women from the female division

[ZeldaFighter]

This is the article that piqued my interest in September:

quillette.com/2022/09/28/is-this-the-lia-thomas-of-disc-golf/

I've been keeping an eye on it but this has happened:

www.outkick.com/professional-disc-golf-effectively-bans-transgender-players-from-competing-in-womens-division/

For the record, I feel for the transgender women involved. But the clue is in the words - they chose to change their gender. Sport is segregated by physical sex, not gender.

Thanks Zelda. That is good news.

I have been watching the progress of this male competitor. That they have announced they are ‘fighting’ the decision will bring more and more sunlight.

Bring it on!

People will see the male entitlement very clearly.

For the record, I feel for the transgender women involved

You feel sorry for someone who used a loophole in the rules to win substantial sums of money, extending to thousands of dollars, that should have been won by female competitors?

Why?

Yeah. I don’t feel sympathy for this male. This individual knew exactly what they were doing.

I don’t think any male who respects women and girls would now be competing in female competitions because there has been so much discussion about it. Just because the rules allow it, doesn’t mean a male ‘has’ to compete in the female category.

Disc golf is a frisbee target shooting game.

Nothing to do with actual golf

And I'm mildly surprised this has come up as I thought it was a completely mixed sport in the first place

No Glacinda there is a female category.

And yes, it is effectively frisbee target shooting.

Still, there is prize money set aside for women. And there will be male advantages in the physiological mechanical side of the sport.

I feel sorry for them because in their own mind, they're doing nothing wrong, abiding by the current rules and being the person they want to be. I don't think there's a single transgender athlete who is trying to cheat - I think they've followed the logic of a foolish ideology and just can't see the bigger picture and the harm they're causing. Bear in mind that I doubt anyone will ever say anything to them directly (despite the survey saying 80% of women said they shouldn't play in the women's division) and anyone who does say anything is branded a bigot and a transphobe. I really think they don't see it and they then consider themselves a targeted victim. I feel sorry for them thinking that way - I don't really want anyone to suffer.

Grip strength, throwing distances achieved, average height etc etc - there are many advantages that the average man has over the average woman in disc golf (and javelin, discus, shot putt etc).

The man they reference in the article was playing for three years and is, reportedly, not particularly good in terms of his form.

He beat the reigning top female professional (16 years experience and acknowledged as the best female player by some margin) in 5 straight tournaments.

They play for money. Not a lot of money, compared to other pro sports, but enough to be able to pay the bills. By competing, he took money out of the pocket of every female player who ranked behind him.

Such a stunning and brave individual.

"I don't think there's a single transgender athlete who is trying to cheat"

I disagree with this. I think there has been a few mediocre athletes that have worked out that transitioning shoots you up the winning chart.

You are very kind zelda.

Do you really think that by now they have not read the science because they have seen the discussion online?

They might be telling themselves that it is 'just following the rules' but these are supposedly people with enough intelligence to be able to make the considered decision to become lifelong medical patients.

I tend to think it is infantilising them to say they don't know about it now. Pre-Hubbard and Thomas, maybe. But Post- Hubbard and Thomas, that would be because they have chosen to remain ignorant, IMO.

Either, good for Disc Golf to make this stand.

either way

I disagree Zelda. All these TW athletes and sportsmen care about is winning. No matter what. If they are mediocre in male category (Hubbard, Thomas), transitioning, then competing with females takes them straight to the top. They know exactly what they are doing. They can hide behind inclusivity but it's all smoke and mirrors because they want to win, even if it's cheating by being in the female category.

Thank you Helleofabore!

And that really is an excellent point! I'm a middle-aged housewife but I have found varying different perspectives and different sources of information to read - and I'm not an athlete immersed in these worlds. To not have seen these discussions or read the information is quite impressive!

But I suspect we may both be right - the athletes know all this stuff BUT "The mental and emotional changes actually happened very quickly," said [Lia] Thomas. "I was feeling a lot better mentally. I was less depressed."
She continued, "And I lost muscle mass and I became a lot weaker and a lot, a lot slower in the water."

They still want to believe that they are now women and not men and being slower and weaker "proves" it to them. They therefore believe it's completely fair to race in the women's competition. Perhaps they think the science doesn't apply to them because they feel and are less strong and fast.

"In response to critics who say Thomas transitioned in order to win more swimming medals, she reiterated that is not the case.
"Trans people don't transition for athletics," she said. "We transition to be happy and authentic and our true selves. Transitioning to get an advantage is not something that ever factors into our decisions.""

One can only quote Christine Keeler in the Profumo case: “Well he would say that, wouldn’t he.”

"In response to critics who say Thomas transitioned in order to win more swimming medals, she reiterated that is not the case."
"Trans people don't transition for athletics," she said. "We transition to be happy and authentic and our true selves. Transitioning to get an advantage is not something that ever factors into our decisions.""

While this may be the case, the sports component is a nice bonus. Particularly if you are getting prestige, even more so if you are also getting cash.

It is a sleight of hand, squirrel tactic.

It simply doesn't matter what their motivation is. The outcome is indisputable, no matter how they try to frame it.

"I don't think there's a single transgender athlete who is trying to cheat"

Seriously? if any of them genuinely "can't see the bigger picture and the harm they're causing" it can only be because they're not looking, they're being wilfully blind to the impact on women and girls.

www.outkick.com/professional-disc-golf-effectively-bans-transgender-players-from-competing-in-womens-division/

Oof at the closing paragraphs there.

I don't think there's a single transgender athlete who is trying to cheat

Have you read about Rachel McKinnon / Veronica Ivy?

"In response to critics who say Thomas transitioned in order to win more swimming medals, she reiterated that is not the case.
"Trans people don't transition for athletics," she said.

Great. So, get out of the female category.

"I don't think there's a single transgender athlete who is trying to cheat"

You missed the recent video of the TW cyclist who tried 3 times in one race to knock the female competitor off her bike? They were cheating every which way.

Reportedly this disc golf athlete won $40k. That's not small change.

I cannot believe there is a single TW athlete who is not aware of their male physical advantage compared to women. I say that as someone who has faced TW in competitive contact sports and it certainly wasn't lost on me.

As others have said, it is insulting to their intelligence to think they believe this is fair - whether it is 'permitted' or not.

And who knew there was so much money in skills with a frisbee??

But there is.

And the cycling events can clock up earnings too.

And then we have the NB marathon runners....

[Lia] Thomas. "I was feeling a lot better mentally. I was less depressed."
She continued, "And I lost muscle mass and I became a lot weaker and a lot, a lot slower in the water."

That phrase a lot is doing some very very heavy lifting in that sob story. He meant he lost a 10oth of a second here and there. Catastrophic in the male competition but, when he wasn't deliberately not using his legs, Thomas remains significantly faster, stronger, more muscled - as in he retains 10 - 20% more - than female swimmers he competes against.

Males who choose to compete in female sports know precisely what they are doing.

It is truly nice to be able to discuss this issue, without insults being thrown!

Every now and then, the scene from The Umbrella Academy pops into my head - where the black woman enters a cafe in the 1960's. She is verbally and physically assaulted because of the colour of her skin by the majority of customers. I never want to be in the evil, ignorant group. Linking the fight against racism and sexism to gender rights has done a number on me (possibly as designed?) I worry constantly that I am being a bigot, despite spending most of my life as an anti-racist feminist supporting women and girls.

I will revise my position but respectfully disagree that it is cheating or deliberate. I will accept your position that it's at the very least wilful, selfish ignorance. What we can agree on is that trans women should be not be competing in female divisions but should be in either "Mixed", "Open" or "Male" divisions.

PS as an aside, in Disc Golf, "Contrary to popular belief, “MPO” in Disc Golf actually stands for Mixed Professional Open, instead of Male Professional Open, & “FPO” stands for Female Professional Open. Divisions that have the letter M in their code are “Mixed” divisions where both males and females may play."

So the trans women could already play in a Mixed division - they have chosen to play in the female division. One commentator said amazingly, it happened just as the prize money between divisions equalised.

I'm undermining my own arguments....I chase my own tail like a crazy dog on these issues...you cannot be both kind and fair

Or as the Sport England review concluded - you cannot balance inclusion, fairness and safety. If you want to prioritise inclusion - and some people do - you need to own that you are sacrificing fairness and safety.

Absolutely! In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to but this is not a perfect world

In every sport there are people who cheat - in a variety of ways - so it’s naive to assume that trans women won’t cheat.

I think 'inclusion' is very much misused in this debate. Inclusion should work for all and not only one group. If Transwomen are included in the female category, females are excluded. Transmen are excluded from all categories because they will never qualify in the male category and can only compete as female if they do not medically transition. Also, the mediocre men who don't claim to be women are forever resigned to the harsh reality of being mediocre. And let's not forget, Transwomen could still compete in the male category while retaining their identity, so no one is actually trying to exclude them from sport as they often claim.

I'm not sure it even benefits transwomen in the long run - yes they will claim the prize money but they will always have the accusation of cheating levelled at them. If transwomen competed in the male category, their achievements would be uncontroversial.

I think some tw intend to cheat in the traditional sense but there are far more that simply don't care or even think about the consequences for women and girls.