Respectful disagreement

[WhatIsWomsn]

My brother is much younger than me and his beliefs about sex and gender differ a lot from mine. Despite this, we are able to express our different beliefs and respect each other. Young and woke as he is, he accepts the internal consistency of my beliefs. It's made me wonder why this isn't typical.

I will use whatever pronouns anyone wants (which may be why it's easier), but I don't believe anyone can change their sex. My siblings (mid 20s to 30s feel the same but don't dare voice it). Ironically, despite not believing transwomen are women, I ended up as the transgender lead in my last job (NHS male forensic services). I actually just think people should have access to clothes/cosmetics that make them feel comfortable.

It's basically made me wonder why things necessarily have to be so acrimonious. You can give trans people what they need to live in their preferred gender because the world probably won't catch up fast enough to just be who they are as their anatomical gender. Accepting that doesn't mean accepting people ARE the gender they say they are.

Apologies if this comes across as rude but your post is not particularly coherent which is perhaps why you haven’t had a big argument with your brother.

When you say you use preferred pronouns, does that mean you refer to males as ‘she’ in their absence, thereby telling the rest of the world you believe they are in fact the opposite sex? And while anybody can purchase clothes or cosmetics of their choice, what is your stance on single-sex accommodation in prisons or hospitals? Where is the point where what trans people ‘need’ (e.g. official documentation stating they are the opposite sex) seriously interferes with the rest of society? Why should these needs overrule reality? I was where you are a few years ago … if there was an easy resolution, I’d think we’d have found it by now.

OP, while you’re happy to choose to use someone’s preferred pronouns, what’s your position on someone being forced or coerced to use them?

What is 'anatomical gender'? Do you mean biological sex?

You can get clothes/cosmetics on the NHS?

Please tell me you can’t get makeup and clothes on the nhs and I’ve just misinterpreted?

Yes, by anatomical gender I mean sex. I support single sex spaces. I worked with transwomen in male prisons and don't think they should have been transferred to the female estate (they weren't).

I'll use someone's preferred pronouns in their absence, but I won't deny their sex. Pronouns for me are a courtesy, not a statement of sex.

15+ years ago I had a few transexual friends (as they called themselves). The understanding was essentially they felt they fit better with the expectation of what society called feminine but they didn't deny their sex. Rightly or wrongly (well... wrongly) there are gender norms and how they presented didn't fit so it made their life easier to transition. They also had gender dysphoria (difficulties with accepting their sexed body and preferring it to look like the opposite sex). Now that doesn't seem to be part of being trans.

So OP you’re ok with making all spaces mixed sex, and allowing males into female rape crisis centres and domestic violence centres? You’re ok with women being forced to share cells with males in prisons? How is a males wish to have his feelings validated more important than a woman’s feelings of comfort, safety and dignity?

No, in prison you can buy it on canteen (order it along with your shower gel and noodles). The "feminine" clothes came from donations. We also had donations of "masculine" clothes.

I think we posted at the same time. No to everything you wrote.

And in regards to things bring acrimonious, who exactly is issuing rape threats, death threats, doxing women, assaulting women, preventing women from speaking, demanding women shut up? I’d suggest if you want to start with calming things down, you start wig the gender ideologists. I don’t think there can be a compromise when one group of people is demanding another group give up their rights and spaces and getting violent when told no. Look at the gender ideologists reaction to the new womens centre. Males are welcome in every other womens centres in Scotland, but because thru are not allowed in this one, they are throwing one hell of a mantrum.

There's clearly an issue with the people protesting and issuing death threats, but I actually think the quiet people telling people they are transphobic for not believing TWAW or TMAM are more damaging. The people shouting at protests don't silence people as much as colleagues, friends and family.

Thing is, OP, everything you have said is pretty much what JKR wrote in her famous essay. And for that position she is viewed as the transphobe from Hell, vilified, sent death threats, had awards removed from her etc etc.

So her being polite and calm in her position is met with effective violence. So what are you hoping for with your OP? It isn’t us you need to tell to be nice and calm and there won’t be an issue. It’s not us doing any of those things. Your OP does read as if only we here could just be a bit nicer it would all be OK.

OP - what’s your point? i agree that single sex spaces are based on biological sex. I agree that men should be able to wear cosmetics and clothing that doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes. I respect your choice to use preferred pronouns, so long as you respect my decision not to use them.

I think the difference is to do with your job.

When you talk with your brother, you can draw on your experiences to explain why, for example, you need to maintain a distinction between gender (pronouns, dress) and sex (prison estate). Your brother is confronted with reality through your professional experience in a way that many people are not. He can't say "that never happens," so your discussions stay grounded in reality.

It's validation the TRAs want. And we twist language about women, not out of deference to transmen but to avoid the uncomfortable reality of language that necessarily excludes transwomen.

I agree with all you say OP but that is not enough for many trans rights activists. The final step that is required for many is full "validation as a woman" and this can only happen when women accept transwomen into all spaces, unquestioned, and anything that centres women must be refocused to "include" transwomen which in practice means centring males.

I too think this is a significant difference.

But then I think of that idiot who told Rhona Hotchkiss she had no idea what she was talking about when she spoke of prisons. I suspect there is another difference.

I then wonder are you male OP ?

It's basically made me wonder why things necessarily have to be so acrimonious. You can give trans people what they need to live in their preferred gender because the world probably won't catch up fast enough to just be who they are as their anatomical gender. Accepting that doesn't mean accepting people ARE the gender they say they are.

It's become so acrimonious because a certain faction of the trans rights activists won't be happy until they have completely and utterly Colinised everything it means to be a woman. Our spaces, our rights, our words.

They won't rest until what it has always meant to be a woman ie adult human female has been eradicated from people's brains and vocabulary.

And yes I'm aware the above should say colonised but my autocorrect decided differently and I thought given the subject it was rather fitting.

I second this

Hmm, is this another man who’s popped along to tell us all if only we’d be reasonable everything would be fine?

Do the research first mate, ok?

And yes I'm aware the above should say colonised but my autocorrect decided differently and I thought given the subject it was rather fitting.

I loved "Colinised"!

Women trying to have respectful debate were met with this - www.terfisaslur.com

This is JKR's respectful, reasoned essay - www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ she has received so many death and rape threats that she 'could paper her house'.

Women have been deplatformed (UOEssex), meetings disrupted (majority of Women's Place meetings), and threatened and screamed at meetings in public spaces (witch outside SP and by masked, violent protesters at various places).

Academics are silenced - www.gcacademianetwork.org/

Rape Crisis centres have had dead rats nailed to their doorways.

Women have been threatened with termination of employment if they dare question gender ideology.

Women wanted to take part in respectful debate. They were met with actual violence and actual threats. Not just violets.

You can give trans people what they need to live in their preferred gender

How much of what they want?
Use the name they choose? OK
Refer to them as the opposite sex in their absence? No. They have a name and are the sex they are.
Do they really need anything from me? Other than validation?

And yes, I do know trans people. I use their preferred names and know the sex they are. As do they!

Because the world probably won't catch up fast enough to just be who they are as their anatomical gender.
No idea what you meant by this. Could you expand a bit? Because much of what you say seems sensible but is wrapped up in a little bit of vagueness.

Accepting that doesn't mean accepting people ARE the gender they say they are.

Do you men sex there? They can be whatever gender they choose, it means nothing in law or to me. They will always be the sex hey were born.

And Colinised is being snaffled for future use 😃