Respectful disagreement

[WhatIsWomsn]

My brother is much younger than me and his beliefs about sex and gender differ a lot from mine. Despite this, we are able to express our different beliefs and respect each other. Young and woke as he is, he accepts the internal consistency of my beliefs. It's made me wonder why this isn't typical.

I will use whatever pronouns anyone wants (which may be why it's easier), but I don't believe anyone can change their sex. My siblings (mid 20s to 30s feel the same but don't dare voice it). Ironically, despite not believing transwomen are women, I ended up as the transgender lead in my last job (NHS male forensic services). I actually just think people should have access to clothes/cosmetics that make them feel comfortable.

It's basically made me wonder why things necessarily have to be so acrimonious. You can give trans people what they need to live in their preferred gender because the world probably won't catch up fast enough to just be who they are as their anatomical gender. Accepting that doesn't mean accepting people ARE the gender they say they are.

How do you make practical decisions based on "respectful disagreement"? Transwomen want to use single sex facilities, women want single sex spaces. Transwomen want to enter women's sports' competitions, women want their sports competitions to be single sex. How would you decide? Respectful disagreement is all good and well when you are having an intellectural debate, but how does that translate into law and practice?

There are competing rights and vulnerabilities here. How do you square the needs of girls and women in general, and those of traumatised women and religious women in particular, with the needs of trans people? Which group would you prioritise and why?

For those wondering, I'm a woman.

My question is more what is it about my brother/our relationship that allows us to sit and discuss without name-calling or being ostracized? Why isn't this the case with other people? Apart from my female siblings and female group of friends I know from school, I will be shunned for expressing my views which really aren't very radical. In fact, I think they were the general consensus 15+ years ago.

@SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth Sorry, I wasn't explaining myself particularly well (insomniac musings aren't the most clear).
Because the world probably won't catch up fast enough to just be who they are as their anatomical gender.
By this I mean people are born male or female. From day 1 there are expectations of how that child should act related to the gender norms associated with their sex. These include types of clothes, interests, mannerisms, personality traits etc.

If we were living in an equal world, these tendencies towards certain traits wouldn't be associated with a certain sex. Clothes are pieces of material, people can work in whatever jobs they like (apart from Equality Act exemptions), being compassionate or dramatic or conscientious are just traits. But we don't live in that world and it might be easier for some people to outwardly present as the opposite sex if they don't fit the gender norms society associates with their sex. It would be fantastic if everyone had the confidence to say fuck off to the norms so they disappear, but that is unlikely to be within that non-gender norm aligning person's lifetime. However, by not saying fuck it, gender norms are getting more ingrained.

I was kicked out of a sporting competition (a contact sport that had decided to allow transwomen to participate based on self-id) for raising the issue of fairness and safety and pointing out the Equality Act permitted the exclusion of male-bodied people. I was accused of being discriminatory and transphobic and ejected with no right of appeal. How am I suppose to respond to that? I'm now left with nowhere to practice my sport that may not also include male-bodied people.

@Truthlikeness that's awful. I'm sorry your sport was taken from you. I'm not suggesting you should be the one to change how you respond, I'm wondering why the sporting organisation responds by shutting any questioning down and defaulting to accusations of transphobia. What stops them actually listening? Is it fear of being shunned/cancelled? Is it easier? Or do they actually just fully believe it to the point they can't actually engage in a sensible discussion?

The conflation of transsexuals and transvestites under the umbrella term transgender has, in my opinion, been one of the root causes.

Transvestites are wanting the adornments and decoration of being a (I’d argue feminine) female. That’s battling against the gender stereotype and I’m all for it - wear what you like, look how you like, who cares? As a women I don’t align with the feminine side at all and, because of the women before me, I don’t have to.

The root cause in all of this is male violence and rather than force/encourage men to change their attitude and behaviour they’d rather come into our safe spaces and force us to accept it.

I wish no violence on anyone but I’m not willing to sacrifice women for those few men.

"My question is more what is it about my brother/our relationship that allows us to sit and discuss without name-calling or being ostracized? Why isn't this the case with other people?"

Because it is your brother. And everyone is different.

I have a very different political view from much of my family and a very different view on many things to be fair. And yet, we all get along just fine because we choose to accept that we have those differences. We even joke about it. Because we are comfortable in allowing each of us to be different.

I do that with many friends as well.

By this I mean people are born male or female. From day 1 there are expectations of how that child should act related to the gender norms associated with their sex. These include types of clothes, interests, mannerisms, personality traits etc.

If we were living in an equal world, these tendencies towards certain traits wouldn't be associated with a certain sex. Clothes are pieces of material, people can work in whatever jobs they like (apart from Equality Act exemptions), being compassionate or dramatic or conscientious are just traits. But we don't live in that world and it might be easier for some people to outwardly present as the opposite sex if they don't fit the gender norms society associates with their sex. It would be fantastic if everyone had the confidence to say fuck off to the norms so they disappear, but that is unlikely to be within that non-gender norm aligning person's lifetime. However, by not saying fuck it, gender norms are getting more ingrained.

OP You've just described the gender critical position here.

But by using pronouns relating to the opposite sex, you are just perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Aye. We need to roll back attitudes to the Gender Benders of the 80s. Look acutely feminine as a male and you'd be assured as many sexual partners if either sex. Same for masculine looking women.

Be transexual, like Marilyn? OK. Still male, just like Adam Ant, Marc Bolan,.David Bowie and the many glam rock and hair metallers.

And to think, we are the generation today's woke youth are accusing of not understanding what not being gender non confirming is like 😃

@HelleofaboreI definitely don't debate well with certain members of my family, particularly on the topic of immigration. They aren't open to challenge or changing any view when presented with evidence. Why is that?

@Gatehouse77 I agree about the ever growing trans umbrella.

@onlytherain I agree, and I'd prioritise safety primarily. I think a lot of the religious conflicts probably have a safety element two (I'm thinking things like swimming).
If organisations didn't jump to "that's transphobic", they might actually design things that better meet the needs of most people. E.g. more self contained, secure changing rooms. If councils looked at DV provision properly they'd see there is generally nowhere near enough support, and not enough specialist support too (BME, LGB, trans, men etc). Each group might have different needs (not necessarily each individual in each group) so what are the solutions? Could they have needs-specific floating support with a community day package of support as an alternative to women's refuges for men/people who don't want to stay in a refuge? That's an idea I thought of just now. If I had time, a budget and a team of good people I could do better.

@WallaceinAnderland I am gender critical. I agree using pronouns does perpetuate gender stereotypes, but I'm also not willing to distress someone. It's like asking someone to pass me a sewing kit when they are phobic of needles. It's illogical, but their distress is real.

I am gender critical. I agree using pronouns does perpetuate gender stereotypes, but I'm also not willing to distress someone. It's like asking someone to pass me a sewing kit when they are phobic of needles. It's illogical, but their distress is real.

Gender stereotypes are harmful to everyone, especially women. Yet you choose perpetuate them. Got it.

Apologies OP, I had misunderstood your opening post, and this is an interesting thread.

I think one of the reasons for the highly emotional stance often taken by TRA’s is that they see GC people as stopping them getting what they want. I suspect your brother is at least one step removed from this, so he’s more willing to listen.

I have found it interesting when talking to people who believe in gender ideology that they seem to describe a gender critical position as being old-fashioned and inflexible. GC people, however, seem to reject gender stereotypes, and be very much more open to characteristics/preferences/presentation etc being an individual choice, not restricted by sex. So maybe there is some misunderstanding. I would love to hear a coherent defence of gender ideology - I haven’t yet.

have I understood right, OP, you work in a men's prison and your work includes working with transwomen?
I'd be interested to know more about this (especially since men in women's prisons is such a crunch case, and one which the general public I believe intuitively take a gender critical stance on)
do you believe TW are in more danger in prison than other men (say men who are not especially 'tough') and do they receive any special treatment?
Are TW all trying to access women's prisons?
what happens about prison clothes/uniforms?
How do other prisoners treat TW?

When these debates take place between strangers online, there is little space for respectful disagreement. This could be because something about the online environment promotes seeing others as two-dimensional characters or defined only by their views on one issue, but my experience is that the debates usually begin with such an extensive definition of transphobia that any questioning of the gender identity ideology instantly counts as transphobic.

I don't work in a prison anymore. I could no longer handle the level of distress the mental health team were attempting to manage with nowhere near enough staff.

I have no statistics so this is just observation. In general the men looked out for the trans prisoners, much as they would other vulnerable prisoners but I think TW are more vulnerable than most prisoners from a very small number of prisoners. I think the risk of assault is quite low, but possibly very serious when it does happen. Similarly, most people with a learning disability are supported by other prisoners, but it only takes a couple for severe bullying (which they may not even realise), theft ("you're such a good friend, always helping me out" while using their canteen money on themselves) and families outside being forced to send in money for their protection.

The few who do these things can make life hell or dangerous so there is a vulnerable prisoners wing (also houses sex offenders). In my prison at least, it is smaller and most officers really try to understand the needs of the prisoners.
TW can request their own regime so they come out alone. This can be in general or just for the showers. Generally the complete separate regime is just as they settle in but showers are usually kept throughout their stay. A separate regime isn't really a perk. I would hate it. You'd be so isolated. They also get a single cell (maybe they could share if they wanted to, but I've never seen it). Cell sharing is done with a risk assessment. I suspect the risk of sexual assault might be quite high for TW so that might be why they don't share. Maybe also because you see your cellmate on the toilet.

Not a single one of the TW I worked with tried to access the women's estate. All had identified as TW for many years and had some kind of medical/surgical transition. One TW asked to be referred to by a male name and pronouns while inside as this felt safer. I don't know how common this is.

The uniform is unisex. It's just a tracksuit. I'm not certain but I don't think female prisoners have to wear a uniform...they didn't in the past but maybe that's changed.

Curious user name, OP.

@waterwitch thanks for apologising and getting what I was meaning. I don't sleep well (hence the early postings when my mind is musing on zero power) 😂
I think you're right about one step removed making it less emotive. My brother has little to lose so is less invested in the debate.

@nepeta I agree about people being seen as 2D online, like this is the one thing they care about. People don't generally see or imagine the work deadline or sick parent. I also think online rage maybe displaced rage. People can't rage at their boss so the anonymous representative of the enemy side gets it all and the poster gets to feel some power.

Early morning name change without my glasses on. Just the age old question TRA won't answer...

Also, narcissistic rage.

This is really interesting, thank you. And for what it’s worth, I’m with you on the question of why this issue always has to get so acrimonious. It is getting us nowhere.

OP, FWIW, I agree with you that this doesn't need to be such an acrimonious topic. But I also suspect for most people, it isn't. My suspicion is that for the overwhelming majority, this isn't a topic that people particularly think or worry about.

@aseriesofstillimages no, it’s not a topic most people have been worried about. Which is what Stonewall et al wanted, so now we are in a place where a woman only space is considered ‘transphobic’. I think people are now waking up thanks to the mantrums of the males with a trans identity who are being told no. By acrimonious do you mean the death, rape and assault threats and actual assaults perpetrated on women by these males with a trans identity, or are you talking about women saying no?

thanks @WhatIsWomsn its a really useful insight
so it sounds like TW in jail would be somewhat vulnerable, like other groups but that can be managed within a male prison.
So there is really no need or them to be in a women's prison other than to affirm their identity. Or of course they may be bog standard men looking or an easier time and/or women victims.
Also interesting that there are TW who aren't trying to access womens prisons. Maybe they are the ones who genuinely don't see (or don't claim to see) themselves as female.