Ministers threaten legal action over Scotland's trans laws

[flyingbuttress43]

Apologies if this is in a thread somewhere but I couldn't see it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/09/ministers-threaten-legal-action-fears-nicola-sturgeons-gender/

UK ministers have threatened to begin legal action over concerns about trans tourism. The Government has urged Nicola Sturgeon to scrap her overhaul of transgender laws allowing people as young as 15 to change their legal gender simply be signing a declaration.

Senior Whitehall figures fear it will put the rest of the UK single sex spaces in jeopardy across the country. Kemi Badenoch has written to Nicola Sturgeon expressing dismay at the legislation and has summoned the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for social justice to a meeting to discuss it.

"I am concerned about the impact of having divergent regimes in different parts of the UK," she said.

The Telegraph also has an editorial "Devolved Genders" backing Badenoch's view. "Unfortunately, the Sturgeon government is taking an increasingly cavalier attitude to such concerns, saying it is a matter for the UK to decide whether to accept the gender certifications issued in Scotland. All of which will merely add significantly to the confusion brought about by Ms Sturgeon's self-centred attitude to a shared social problem."

Bring it.

This is the problem with devolution, extremist ideas can take hold and flourish.

Yes, better Scots know their place and be ruled by Westminster.

I think there's possibly something to be said for the lack of a second chamber in the Scotgov, at the very least.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/09/sturgeons-trans-obsession-has-become-wild-crusade/

Also in the Telegraph today: Alan Cochrane column: "Sturgeon's trans obsession has become a wild crusade".

He asserts that Sturgeon's haste to get the legislation through is also seen as a stratagem to defuse what might turn out to be the most significant internal political opposition to the bill - by one of her top ministers. He says that Finance minister Kate Forbes is widely seen as the SNP government's most talented Cabinet member and almost a shoo-in as Sturgeon's successor. She is known to strongly oppose the bill, but is currently on maternity leave. Cochrane says Sturgeon is rushing the vote so that Forbes can't vote against it. If she were to do so she would be sacked as Sturgeon has refused a free vote.

Cochrane says Sturgeon wants to demonstrate she is still in charge after weeks of bad headlines. "But this 'smack of firm government' as she sees it, has united opposition to her leadership as almost nothing else has. And all because of a completely misguided obsession."

Kate Forbes is tweeting from home saying she's voting against.

Possibly.

But there is Proportional Representation and it was probably never envisaged that Scotland would essentially become a one party state.

The SNP only needed a couple of extra votes so did do a deal with an extremist party which is concerning. But ideally it would be a coalition of more moderate parties which should prevent bad laws like this (even though they all seem to have fallen for it).

However, even with it how it is just now, and I despise the SNP with a passion, and think they are shockingly bad in government, it is still better than what there was before.

It was Devolution that stopped me wanting indepence. Up until that point we were basically ruled by the English.

This is a tricky one for me as a Scot. Scotland should be free to set its own rules within a constitutional framework with Westminster sticking its oar in. I recall the same argument being made the other way when Scotland raised income tax and don't recall a huge brain drain over the border. Just because I don't like a law doesn't mean I want Westminster running in on its white charger to stop it...

That's super interesting about Kate Forbes though and does make me like her more. Again, not just because I hate this proposed law, but because I like people with principles.

Turns out we could use a second chamber... but nobody foresaw it working like this, it's not supposed to. I think we're probably being used internationally as an example of unexpected consequences wrt proportional representation.

If the UK government fight this (and I think they should) they absolutely need to get the messaging right.

Because NS is hoping that they challenge her on this. That is why she is pushing it through even though she must know its a bad law.

But there is nothing more likely to get Scots voting for independence than the Tories dictating.

Given the reality of Sturgeon's current behaviour some might say that the Westminster oversight is really good thing.

Because all she is doing is adding grist to the mill where that perception is concerned.

What is a legal gender though?
I don't have one.

The entire bullshit piece of legislation requires suspending belief in reality and the reduction of women to feelings and performance.

How did we get to the point where men claiming to be women are given protection over and above women, and that it's declared a 'human right' for these particular men to access all spaces where women and children are at their most vulnerable without question.

Devolution and Scottish independence are complex and emotive issues, but in no universe should the Scottish government have the right to pass legislation that affects everyone in the rest of the UK. It's bad enough that it affects Scottish women and girls.

Westminster should just say we refuse to recognise Scottish GRCs in any way whatsoever (just like other countries' gender rules have no effect here). Ideally they'd update the Equality Act to make it clear that sex means biological sex not whatever you got certificated in a self-ID country.

Believing that a man should not be able to self id as a woman does not mean I am going to support an extreme right wing government.

Exactly, all this legislation is anti-science, anti-reality. Codifying gender in law makes no more sense to me than letting people put their star sign or favourite football team on their passports (people's gender identity can apparently change from day to day, but my team is my team for life - that's true immutability!)

That's exactly what Sturgeon is relying on.

That permanently fucking up women's equality and children's safety in extremely dodgy ways will be waved through by those saying 'well yes it sucks but at least we're not ruled by England, so I identify as there being no blood on my hands'.

Reminds me somewhat of the 30s and the whole 'say what you like about Mussolini, at least our trains run on time'.

Westminster should just say we refuse to recognise Scottish GRCs in any way whatsoever (just like other countries' gender rules have no effect here)

Apparently GRCs obtained in other countries may count here if they have similarly stringent gatekeeping. However the list is out of date and includes countries that now have self ID.

Scottish 16 year olds deciding they're the opposite sex and getting drugs and surgery to fix them. Wonder what else will be demanded from children too young to consent by these toxic politicians?

Where? I can't find this. Can you link? If so, this would be huge!!

Big leap. I said Westminster, not Tory.

@Abccde "an extreme right wing government" 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

And true. All that sodding hyperbole.

Extreme right wing? Get a reality check...😃

The rest of the UK should refuse to accept these certificates. And change the Equality Act to remove any ambiguity on sex versus gender.

And then NHS Scotland and the Scottish Government should be given legal responsibility for all and any litigation cost from these changes and no access to other public services in the UK on the basis of assumed gender.

Forget about Scottish independence for a second, because if Scotland keep choosing the SNP to lead them then the rest of the UK needs to do something else fast. Waiting for the SNP to stop aggravating Westminster is pointless

I can’t find this either. I suspect the poster is confusing Kate Forbes with Meghan Gallacher

I think some of the decisions that have been made by the UK goverment over the last few years and the disregard for democracy has been extreme. Much of that has been driven by lies and not reality. I don't believe that to be Huperbole. You may think so but I really don't give a fuck.

The current Tory party is the most extremist of all the UK governing parties, in my opinion.