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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ministers threaten legal action over Scotland's trans laws

92 replies

flyingbuttress43 · 10/12/2022 10:59

Apologies if this is in a thread somewhere but I couldn't see it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/09/ministers-threaten-legal-action-fears-nicola-sturgeons-gender/

UK ministers have threatened to begin legal action over concerns about trans tourism. The Government has urged Nicola Sturgeon to scrap her overhaul of transgender laws allowing people as young as 15 to change their legal gender simply be signing a declaration.

Senior Whitehall figures fear it will put the rest of the UK single sex spaces in jeopardy across the country. Kemi Badenoch has written to Nicola Sturgeon expressing dismay at the legislation and has summoned the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for social justice to a meeting to discuss it.

"I am concerned about the impact of having divergent regimes in different parts of the UK," she said.

The Telegraph also has an editorial "Devolved Genders" backing Badenoch's view. "Unfortunately, the Sturgeon government is taking an increasingly cavalier attitude to such concerns, saying it is a matter for the UK to decide whether to accept the gender certifications issued in Scotland. All of which will merely add significantly to the confusion brought about by Ms Sturgeon's self-centred attitude to a shared social problem."

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 10/12/2022 13:16

How does it work with GRCs in other countries that have introduced self ID, if the holders come to this country? Does anyone know? And could someone move to the Republic of Ireland or.....Iceland(?), get a GRC then move back?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 10/12/2022 13:16

Ah! Well, I think Sturgeon us giving them good run for her money right now. With her absolutism, mandated votes, and habit of sticking her fingers in her ears, Ising her eyes and singing la la la la whenever someone with an alternative view, research, evidence hoves into view.

scratchedbymycat · 10/12/2022 13:23

roarfeckingroarr · 10/12/2022 12:45

@Abccde "an extreme right wing government" 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I agree with @Abccde that the current batch of Tories are extreme right wing. And I say that as someone who has occasionally voted Tory in the past. Your string of laughing faces makes me think tolerance for right wing politics is becoming scarily normalised in the UK.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 10/12/2022 13:28

I think the current obsession across both MSM and SM of using words like Humpty leads to some painting themselves into corners.

If the Tories are extreme far right what are [insert fascist, terrorist organisation name here]?

Has there been a new term coined?

Abccde · 10/12/2022 13:29

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 10/12/2022 13:16

Ah! Well, I think Sturgeon us giving them good run for her money right now. With her absolutism, mandated votes, and habit of sticking her fingers in her ears, Ising her eyes and singing la la la la whenever someone with an alternative view, research, evidence hoves into view.

I don't think she is a good example of democracy in action but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I don't plan on making excuses for either government. They are both incompetent.

But over 74% of people who voted in the devolution referendum voted yes. I was one of them. I don't like Sturgeon but I also don't think some of the comments on this thread are helpful.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 10/12/2022 13:30

I agree. The daftness of 'extreme far right' helps nobody.

Clymene · 10/12/2022 13:34

I don't like Sturgeon but I also don't think some of the comments on this thread are helpful.

Says the person who calls Westminster an 'extreme right wing government' Hmm

Signalbox · 10/12/2022 13:41

I agree with @Abccde that the current batch of Tories are extreme right wing.

I'm intrigued... which of their policies would you say are extreme right wing rather than bog standard Conservative?

Justtoshare · 10/12/2022 13:59

scratchedbymycat · 10/12/2022 13:23

I agree with @Abccde that the current batch of Tories are extreme right wing. And I say that as someone who has occasionally voted Tory in the past. Your string of laughing faces makes me think tolerance for right wing politics is becoming scarily normalised in the UK.

Thatcher's Government was far more right wing than the current lot. If anything the current UK Tories are far too Blairite and 'woke' for their own good.

LexMitior · 10/12/2022 14:02

Just take the party element out of it. If your government were going to support self ID, would you vote for them?

Nicola Sturgeon will be gone one day. Her laws will not.

VioletLemon · 10/12/2022 14:12

In what way does Scotgov legislation affect the rest of UK on this issue.

I disagree with the changes 100% but still support independence! Majority of Scotland is sick to death of Westminster legislation being forced on Scotland.

Bearing in mind 67% of Scots voted to remain in EU. Scotland has not voted a majority for Conservative since 1955. So, you can see why it's a bit rich to complain about Scotland's legislation affecting UK!!!!

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 10/12/2022 14:16

Did you not read the link in the OP?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 10/12/2022 14:18

And as Westminster is the UK government, not the Parliament of England

Or do we have to go through all of that blather again, explaining the reality of it all?

AraberylScott · 10/12/2022 14:20

IcakethereforeIam · 10/12/2022 13:16

How does it work with GRCs in other countries that have introduced self ID, if the holders come to this country? Does anyone know? And could someone move to the Republic of Ireland or.....Iceland(?), get a GRC then move back?

I seem to remember this being something that was going to be examined as the Bill went through. However, along with many other serious issues, I don't know if it's just been brushed aside; I can't remember seeing any info on what would happen in those instances.

AraberylScott · 10/12/2022 14:26

Currently:

'If you’ve had your gender previously recognised in one of the countries or territories in this list, you’re on the ‘overseas route’. This means you do not need to provide medical reports when applying for gender recognition in the UK.

If the country or territory is not on this list or you do not have a legal document showing your gender recognition, you’re on the ‘main route’ and must provide additional documents to apply.'

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories

List of approved countries and territories:

Australia

Austria

Belgium

Bulgaria

Canada – not including Northwest Territories and Nunavut

Croatia

Cyprus

Czech Republic

Denmark

Estonia

Finland

France

Germany

Greece

Iceland

Italy

Japan

Liechtenstein

Luxembourg

Malta

Mexico City, Mexico

Moldova

Netherlands

New Zealand

Norway

Poland

Romania

Russian Federation

Serbia

Singapore

Slovakia

Slovenia

South Africa

South Korea

Spain

Sweden

Switzerland

Turkey

Ukraine

United States of America – not including Idaho, Ohio, Tennessee and Texas

Uruguay

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 10/12/2022 14:30

What happens when the current Tory govt. falls - NS can no longer set Westminster up as a bogeyman. Is she trying to force as many issues as she can before the next general election?

AraberylScott · 10/12/2022 14:38

Well, if it's true that Sturgeon and the current comfortable SNP administration don't want independence it doesn't really matter what happens at Westminster. It's all bluster & diversion, anyway.

Sturgeon hasn't got all that much time left as First Minister, most would say. She'll be looking to her next role.

scratchedbymycat · 10/12/2022 14:40

Signalbox · 10/12/2022 13:41

I agree with @Abccde that the current batch of Tories are extreme right wing.

I'm intrigued... which of their policies would you say are extreme right wing rather than bog standard Conservative?

Well, obviously, Liz Truss and Kwazi Kwarteng's brief spate in government was as right-wing economically as you can get. American-style libertarianism.

The whole hostile environment and the way they treat migrants is just vile. The language they actually use in Parliament is directly fascistic (“invaders” THAT’s the hyperbole people shoukd object to!) What next? Cockroaches? The whole nasty lie about illegal migrants when it is bloody impossible to be a ‘legal’ migrant from some countries.

The massive intolerance to the democratic right to protest, and vilifying of protestors.

Following Trussenomics, talking about bringing in laws to control unions and strike action even more - when it's already massively controlled - feels like another tone-deaf right-wing authoritarian response to a problem that directly evolves from Tory policies: Brexit, Truss, austerity.

Prior to that it was the authoritarian behaviour that horrified me: proroguing Parliament, behaving as if international law is a trivial consequence, the lies around NI agreement, ignoring their own laws wrt party gate, the rampant fraud around PPE contracts being written off, talk of withdrawing from international human rights agreements ...

Honestly, I could go on and on and on.

I live in Scotland, never liked the SNP, voted against Scottish Independence and occasionally voted Tory. But, my god, the tory government from Cameron to Sunak has been a total gift to the SNP, and people like me are BITTERLY let down by all of it.

When the only media talking about GC issues are the right-wing media, we’re in trouble up here. Anyone pro-Indy almost automatically disregards anything written by those papers anyway, because of those papers’ stance stance on independence. And the rest of us? It’s easy for the SNP and the Greens to discredit any GC article in a paper like that as yet more distasteful right-wing media prejudice, because those same papers also trumpet support for this bunch of tossers.

Most people don’t read the detail behind GC issues, and most don’t understand the nuance, so the Westminster corruption plus media really does have significant influence on views up here and it makes me despair. It feels like, before you can even start discussing GC issues, we have to first convince who we’re talking to that this is an issue that exists irrespective of politics. It's like a wall that needs to be chipped away first.

I feel like I have to navigate two social risks among my Scottish peers on the GC topic: first, that the person I talk to might file me away in their mind as someone who is probably also racist, xenophobic and intolerant of the poor —— as well as transphobic. I can cope with being (falsely) labelled as transphobic, but I really don’t want people I generally like and respect thinking I have all the other unpleasant qualities.

scratchedbymycat · 10/12/2022 14:42

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 10/12/2022 14:30

What happens when the current Tory govt. falls - NS can no longer set Westminster up as a bogeyman. Is she trying to force as many issues as she can before the next general election?

God, I hope so.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 10/12/2022 14:44

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

scratchedbymycat · 10/12/2022 14:44

... I replied too fast. I mean, yes, I hope she loses her villain.

And yes, I think she's got a great window of opportunity to force through stuff when people up here are so revolted by current Tory behaviour.

Coyoacan · 10/12/2022 14:48

Slight change of subject, but @ArabellaScott is AraberylScott you?

scratchedbymycat · 10/12/2022 14:51

See below. Please don't try and insult my intelligence by saying none of this is extreme in a UK context. And the fact they aren't Trump, Bolsenaro or Orban should not be reassuring when you live in the UK. This kind of defence of the Tory party is actually a big part of the problem.

AraberylScott · 10/12/2022 14:53

Oh, yes, it is Coyoacan! I was making a joke on another thread.

Signalbox · 10/12/2022 16:32

scratchedbymycat · 10/12/2022 14:51

See below. Please don't try and insult my intelligence by saying none of this is extreme in a UK context. And the fact they aren't Trump, Bolsenaro or Orban should not be reassuring when you live in the UK. This kind of defence of the Tory party is actually a big part of the problem.

I'd say that anyone who thinks that the growing tendency towards authoritarianism is just a Tory trait is also part of the problem. One of the problems about the authoritarian tendencies of the Tories is that Labour are such a weak opposition and that is because they are a bit half hearted about defending freedom themselves. Labour's position during lockdown is a good example of this. Labour would have gone much further than the Tories so put up zero opposition to the removal of people's freedom. Another example is the online safety bill where the Tories have ditched the problematic "lawful but harmful" clause but Labour are promising to put it back in if they win the next election. Labour are rubbish in relation to freedom of speech and refuse to see that there is any issue in the UK of people being bullied, sacked, cancelled for having the wrong sorts of opinions. They are also silent on the effective indoctrination of children in schools in relation to race and "gender". Also I guarantee that any legislation that the Tories introduce in relation to striking or demonstrating will not be undone once Labour are in power. They love it when the Tories legislate stuff like this.