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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sexual choking is now so common that many young people don’t think it even requires consent. That’s a problem

62 replies

IwantToRetire · 09/12/2022 15:27

" ... It made me sad to think about the amount of girls who would have just “gone along with it” in that moment – including myself a few years ago. I would have known myself well enough to know that being choked wasn’t something that sexually turned me on, however I don’t know if I would have been able to distinguish between enjoying a sexual encounter because the man I was with was enjoying it, or because I truly enjoyed it myself.

I worry about how many women are yet to make this distinction, and implore you to consider where the true source of your consent lies, because if it is with the desire to satisfy men who want to strangle you, it may be wrongly placed. ... "

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/08/sexual-choking-is-now-so-common-that-many-young-people-dont-think-it-even-requires-consent-thats-a-problem

Not saying this is the best article ever about this increasing violence inspired by pornograpy, and suspect the Guardian only published it because the writer is one of the BBC's 100 women.

But on the other hand this cant be said to often enough, and if it reaches one young woman, or in fact any woman, then that's good.

OP posts:
Greenfairydust · 14/12/2022 10:25

The negative influence of porn yet again.

It baffles me that so many people still try to pretend that the fact that so much of porn these days displays violent and degrading acts towards women has no impact on the way men expect to have sex.

it saddens me that so many women are putting up with this rubbish in the name of not being seen as ''prudes''.

Porn and dodgy online dating practices seem to have benefited men rather than women and set feminism back decades.

Sazzasez · 14/12/2022 13:19

Didn’t we (as a culture) start having a conversation about consent? A few years back?

i mean explicit consent for everything?

i remember it was ridiculed a bit.

But there were apparently policies in universities & all.

What happened?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/12/2022 13:35

Sazzasez · 14/12/2022 13:19

Didn’t we (as a culture) start having a conversation about consent? A few years back?

i mean explicit consent for everything?

i remember it was ridiculed a bit.

But there were apparently policies in universities & all.

What happened?

Trans activism happened. An ideology that demands that individuals have no right to consent and that women / girls must accept the presence of born males anywhere and especially if they're vulnerable, undressed, sleeping in a hospital ward or prison cell. Apparently women refusing to be undressed in the presence of any random man is akin to racism Confused
It's a small step to insisting that violence against women doesn't exist if the man calls it a sexual act.

SapphireSeptember · 14/12/2022 19:49

This is all so depressing. I've dated men around my own age who are disgusting creatures who get off on all sorts, because they're porn soaked and think it's normal, and then try (and have succeeded) in getting me to agree to it. (Last one didn't, my boundaries came down hard on him, so he called me hostile. He got blocked after he phoned me last month while having a wank. 🤢 Wasn't impressed, to put it mildly.) One of the guys I was with was very in to strangling me and once did it till I nearly passed out, and reading threads on here about the damage that can do is very scary.

Meanwhile I'm dating an older man who doesn't do anything weird, doesn't watch porn or obsess over glamour models or use prostitutes. There must be men my own age like that, but I seem to attract the pervs. 😭

IwantToRetire · 14/12/2022 20:06

I think long before transactivism which has been hijacked by MRAs, the 60s social revolution of more freedom lead not to equality but the creation of Playboy etc. (did anyone watch that documentary) and other such "sexual freedoms". These freedoms were all about women submitting to what men wanted.

And it is worth remembering that 70s WLM came about as much from women sickened by alternative culture as any university or equal rights theoretical contribution.

So that's 50 odd years ago, and it is only now that women are being listened to about what really happened at the Playboy Mansion.

That's 50 years in which "liberals" have campaigned against censorship. But what has that given us, porn in every corner shop, on tv and now a fashion style for some young women.

And because it has been unchecked it has become more extreme but presented as being normal.

So is it any wonder that young men have absorbed the idea that women like being abused.

And just as MRAs hijacked the sexual freedom movement they have now hijacked the "subversive" freedoms of queer politics, including trans activism.

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AsTreesWalking · 14/12/2022 20:14

This is so sad. I've had a very enjoyable sex life,and absolutely never done anything I didn't want to do. That's what I call sex positive .I'm not sure it's what younger women mean by that term though.

Kucingsparkles · 14/12/2022 20:30

AsTreesWalking · 14/12/2022 20:14

This is so sad. I've had a very enjoyable sex life,and absolutely never done anything I didn't want to do. That's what I call sex positive .I'm not sure it's what younger women mean by that term though.

I agree. I get the impression that "sex positive" means pretending, or convincing yourself, that you're totally fine with any kind of weird or nasty shit being done to you, because you think the social death of being labelled "prudish" or "vanilla" or "kink-shaming" or "bigoted" is somehow worse.

thedankness · 14/12/2022 20:30

Sazzasez · 14/12/2022 13:19

Didn’t we (as a culture) start having a conversation about consent? A few years back?

i mean explicit consent for everything?

i remember it was ridiculed a bit.

But there were apparently policies in universities & all.

What happened?

www.almendron.com/tribuna/consent-is-not-enough-we-need-a-new-sexual-ethic/

This topic reminds me of this fantastic article I read in the Washington Post about how consent is the bare minimum and simply redefining consent to be "enthusiastic" is not enough. It's quite long so I'll post some excerpts:

"More clarifications of consent — or ever-more-technical breakdowns of its different forms — won’t rebalance power differentials, explain intimacy or teach us how to care. Making the standard of consent our sole criterion for good sex punts on the question of how to conduct a relationship that affirms our fundamental personhood and human dignity."

"Setting consent as the highest bar for any encounter effectively takes a pass on the harder questions: whether that consent was fairly obtained; whether it can ever fully convey what our partners really, ultimately want; whether we should be doing what we’ve gotten consent to do."

"Early in the #MeToo movement, many commenters argued that women should simply get better at saying no, at withholding their consent and exiting uncomfortable situations. There’s some truth to that. But it also felt like yet another burden placed on women: to be gatekeepers, whose comfort and safety were predicated on having the right level of self-confidence and self-possession even in their most vulnerable moments. What about those of us who are not always perfectly self-assured?"

"And making the issue “being firm about consent” sidesteps a critical question about what our standards should be. There are some sexual practices — Kaitlin’s surprise choking encounter among them — that eroticize dehumanization and degradation, ones for which the issue should not be whether they are consented to but whether they’re ethically valid at all.

"Instead, “between two consenting adults” has become a stock phrase, a conversational yield sign indicating that whatever is detailed next might raise eyebrows but remains beyond critique. This obscures the fact that not all sex is the same. Some things are worse than others. Yet the bias toward acceptance makes it difficult to say so, even when something feels obviously wrong.

"And when we do object to a particular act or practice, there isn’t language to do so. Since we have made it effectively impossible for anything apart from nonconsent to be wrong, we end up framing issues in that prevailing standard — the consent given wasn’t the right kind, we say: It wasn’t verbally affirmative or visibly enthusiastic. There’s no clear way to talk about the underlying problems of sexual acts agreed to in order to “be polite”, to please a pushy partner or to avoid something worse."

"There are many situations in which a partner might consent to sex — affirmatively, even enthusiastically — but in which sex would still be ethically wrong. In general, “willing the good of the other” is most often realized in restraint — in inaction rather than action. This involves a certain level of maturity and self-knowledge on all our parts: an understanding that if we aren’t able to manage this level of consideration — in the moment or more broadly — we probably shouldn’t be having sex. And, yes, it might lead to less casual sex, not more."

The whole article basically makes the case for love, and it's so deeply sad to me that in a generation love as a concept in intimacy is virtually obliterated. Porn is robbing us of our humanity - it has to go.

AsTreesWalking · 14/12/2022 21:28

Kucingsparkles · 14/12/2022 20:30

I agree. I get the impression that "sex positive" means pretending, or convincing yourself, that you're totally fine with any kind of weird or nasty shit being done to you, because you think the social death of being labelled "prudish" or "vanilla" or "kink-shaming" or "bigoted" is somehow worse.

that's it, exactly, Kucingsparkles, anything less positive is hard to imagine. Whatever happened to happy pleasure?

Ofcourseshecan · 15/12/2022 00:26

I had a lot of sexual partners in the 1970s and I never met or heard of or read of any man wanting to choke a woman during normal sex. Some of my friends and I had been sexually assaulted — a different thing. None of us had heard of choking as part of consensual sex.

How depressing, and unbelievable, that misogynist violence has now become ‘normal’.

Sazzasez · 15/12/2022 05:08

Thank you @thedankness - I think that was one of the articles I had in mind.

Sazzasez · 15/12/2022 05:09

An ex I’d stayed on good terms with told me he’d split up with his next gf because she asked him to strangle her during sex. It scared the poop out of him & he declined.

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