Women's rights general conversations

[Kucingsparkles]

This is an experimental thread, all input much appreciated!

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Right, bring on the flames or flowers! <cowers>

I'm going to quote a man here, Andrew Pope, humorist and a fantastic man for explaining safeguarding in small words. In a blog about Mastodon, he jogged my mind about the early internet, and why women would get into the habit of placating male users. I did it myself, especially in MMORPG guilds. I gradually shed these habits on MN, and have now graduated to telling arseholes in person, "that was incredibly rude". A friend is terrified I will get punched. She probably has a point.

By now a load of Mastodon fans have skipped to the comments section, to tell me that this is all a feature, not a bug, and that they like it this way. I’ve even seen a few people say that the Mastodon experience reminds them of the web forums of the 90s and early 2000s, and say that as if it’s a good thing.

We seem to have collectively forgotten what horrible, insular, clique-driven, boys’ clubs they were. Women were welcome, of course, so long as they were gamer chicks, or biker chicks, or nerd chicks, or cool chicks, who’d laugh off (or oblige) the ubiquitous ‘TOGTFO’ comments, and be the kind of chick who wouldn’t complain she’d just been called ‘chick’ five times in quick succession. And so many of those forums were convinced they were “nice” places, because they were run on ‘Just be nice’ rules, where the people enforcing the rules decided what was nice.

Mastodon, though, really seems to go the extra mile in adding a layer of earnest humourlessness on to the top. There’s a “We’re all mad here, us,” energy to the humour that does slip through, followed by a reminder that some neurodivergent people can’t immediately recognise humour, so all jokes should have embedded humour tags, so as not to exclude them, and should link to an essay explaining the joke.

What the last few years on Twitter have taught me is that for the men’s-rights movement that hides behind the trans colours to succeed it needs people not to talk about it. It needs women with strong voices silenced. It needs po-faced acceptance of the absurdities it insists are truths. In Mastodon it seems to have found its perfect partner.

Andrew's blog

One of the very few advantages of genderism is that it has revealed the extent of misogyny to some men:

twitter.com/douglaskmurray/status/1484620444707790856

We are very used to formatting fails here. And typos (some of which are hilarious).

I have found the new update formating to really be a bit unforgiving so resort back to the old methods ^ for italics and * for bold.

and why women would get into the habit of placating male users. I did it myself, especially in MMORPG guilds.

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision I have spent a fair portion of my adult life placating men, mostly in the context of abusive relationships, despite having called myself a feminist for the past 10 years. Placation was a survival strategy, to not rock the boat for fear of the consequences it would bring. I have excused countless despicable behaviours to my own detriment (but never when those behaviours directed at other women, for some reason) because the man was ‘damaged’ or sad or lonely or had a difficult childhood or whatever else. Last year I decided to free myself of all that and finally come to my senses that I am not here to be an emotional support human for men and I am not responsible for their wellbeing nor their shitty behaviour. I’ve known it for years of course and I just wish I’d been able to put it into practice sooner. I still feel myself slipping from time to time and have to give myself a good talking to.

One of the very few advantages of genderism is that it has revealed the extent of misogyny to some men:

twitter.com/douglaskmurray/status/148462044470779085

And exposure to that misogyny is what is fuelling that rise in female anger imo.

www.bbc.com/news/world-63874001

I'm not impressed by the interventions from the bloke yesterday. Maybe there could be a conversation around that somewhere (I'm not keen) but not here, not now, not in that tone.

In 2006, at the time of the Ipswich murders, I spent a lot of time on the BBC news message boards insisting that they should refer to the victims not as 'prostitutes', but as 'women who worked as prostitutes'. It was obvious that it was being female that made them vulnerable - male sex workers weren't on the at-risk list.

A lot of the other posters were very indignant, (the Beeb did eventually start to change) - the twin ideas that that's what women are there for, but also that we deserve what we get because we're whores trope runs very deep - see the objections to Hallie Rubenhold's excellent book about the women murdered in London in 1888. Women first, problematic 'job' title second.

We seem to have collectively forgotten what horrible, insular, clique-driven, boys’ clubs they were

Great extract there. Thanks @NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision

I think most of life is like a clique-driven, boys' own club. I think it's merely replicated online but it can seem more stark there. I think Germaine Greer had it right, as she so often does, when she said women live in the house of enemy. And yes, I know NAMALT and many women don't want to see men as the enemy. But the fact remains it's their world and even the nicest, kindest, most understanding men gain huge benefit from that.

Even the primogeniture clause is the GRA assumes women will use the to act to deceive and gain financial advantage over their male siblings, this clause was felt necessary despite it applying to a tiny number of the population, and yet we keep being told that male predators would never abuse self ID despite evidence that predators will capitalise on any loophole which provides them with opportunity

That is very very interesting to me and I didn't know this, thank you for sharing.

We seem to have collectively forgotten what horrible, insular, clique-driven, boys’ clubs they were

It must be a big shock for men who come here expecting the usual treatment who then find that, actually, women run this place and we don't do that here.

In 2006, at the time of the Ipswich murders, I spent a lot of time on the BBC news message boards insisting that they should refer to the victims not as 'prostitutes', but as 'women who worked as prostitutes'. It was obvious that it was being female that made them vulnerable - male sex workers weren't on the at-risk list.

I recall when Peter Sutcliffe murdered a number of women in Leeds in the late 70s and early 80s the coverage changed when he murdered women who weren't working or alleged to have been working as prostitutes. The coverage actually as good as said it was much more frightening now he'd moved onto "respectable" women. Joan Smith is very good on this.

We are very used to formatting fails here.

Whole chunks of text sometimes appear to be struck out if they've been c&pd and happen to include some dashes. And higher education threads are beset by inadvertent bolding if A* grades are being mentioned more than once.

I agree with you MissLawls about Greer. I'm very slightly younger that you and read the Female Eunuch first in the mid seventies, but a lot of it resonates so much now. I probably ought to get it down and do a proper re-read.

It must be a big shock for men who come here expecting the usual treatment who then find that, actually, women run this place and we don't do that here.

And it's lovely for me to discover women don't get the usual treatment here!

What treatment would that be?

Agree, Lawls, it's exhilarating.

I agree with you MissLawls about Greer. I'm very slightly younger that you and read the Female Eunuch first in the mid seventies, but a lot of it resonates so much now. I probably ought to get it down and do a proper re-read.

Thank you for that @DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry I still have my copy bought in 1972 for - wait for it wait for it! - 50p! It's falling apart from being lent and relent and read, re-read and re-read. It's great how you can just dip into it and find some real firecrackers. I don't think it's ever been bettered. And those who saw Greer's interview with Kirsty Wark on Newsnight and Krishnan Guru-Murthy on Channel 4 News will see she hasn't tempered her views at all.

This has the shameful quotes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PeterSutcliffe#Attitudeetowardsprostitutes

Agree, Lawls, it's exhilarating.

It's like coming home!

What treatment would that be?

Being patronised, tolerated, feeling you're in someone else's house and must behave.

What treatment would that be?

There are lots of tells, but one common one, is to complain about the way we expressed ourselves rather than what we were saying, and comments about being "shrill" etc. Recently it was words to the effect of "that might have been an interesting discussion if you hadn't been so bigoted".

We seem to have collectively forgotten what horrible, insular, clique-driven, boys’ clubs they were. Women were welcome, of course, so long as they were gamer chicks, or biker chicks, or nerd chicks, or cool chicks, who’d laugh off (or oblige) the ubiquitous ‘TOGTFO’ comments, and be the kind of chick who wouldn’t complain she’d just been called ‘chick’ five times in quick succession. And so many of those forums were convinced they were “nice” places, because they were run on ‘Just be nice’ rules, where the people enforcing the rules decided what was nice.

So true!

Oh. thanks.

We do sometimes get posters who try that. But they are often identified as the trolls they are or if they are regular posters who go overboard, they are deleted.

"that might have been an interesting discussion if you hadn't been so bigoted".

yeah... that is a regular occurence here. Some of us feel like that zombie rollercoaster cartoon.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/15th-september-2020

Bloody hell. You're well out of it.
I'm almost on the verge of offering (((unmumsnetty hugs)))

One of the very few advantages of genderism is that it has revealed the extent of misogyny to some men

I don't agree with Murray about many things but I do love his straightforward writing and always find him very readable. Thanks for that @ArabellaScott

good grief Errol ! Don't go over board !

(😢)

Bloody hell. You're well out of it.

Yes we are @ErrolTheDragon And I'll take the hugs thanks!