Advice please: boss keeps ranting about “TERFS”

[WeeBisom]

I’m currently doing freelance work for a woman who is high up in a very woke industry, shall we say (like publishing). It’s a big project and I expect to be working with her for some time. Things have been good, except lately she has started trying to engage me in conversation about trans stuff. Her and her company are completely on board with everything trans (they are stonewall trained).

The problem is she keeps ranting at me about “terfs” and “transphobes”. I’ve listened to her rant about Julie bindel, KJK, and dozens of other women. This makes me feel uncomfortable because I’m gender critical and I get the very strong impression that if she found this out for sure she would fire me.

Recently she’s started asking me questions and the aim is to find out where I stand on these things. When she rants I just go completely silent and change the subject , but it’s harder when she asks me something directly.

For instance, she said the other day she felt really sorry for a trans celebrity (ironically she called him “he” even though they are a trans woman). She turned to me and said “what do you think about him?” I have extremely strong opinions about this individual, none of which she would want to hear ! So I just kept quiet and said “hmm I don’t really know”.

I think she’s beginning to notice that I shut down around these conversations and get extremely awkward. I obviously don’t mind that she’s a TRA - that’s her business. But I don’t think I should be drawn into these kinds of conversations, especially when a) it’s not relevant to the work we are doing and b) our relationship will significantly sour if I come out as one of those dreaded “terfs”.

Any advice on what I should do? I’m considering just saying to her “you know I don’t know very much about this topic at all, I try to keep out of it” next time she brings it up.

You could always head her off if she looks like the conversation is going that way and ask her if she's found Jesus?

Seriously though because of the way your employed I'd try to keep as non committal either way if you can.

I'd just say 'ooooh somebody's been on Twitter!' then get back to my work.

I would say 'I don't discuss politics or religion at work' every time.

If she continued to bring it up I would say 'you are the boss, and it feels like you are misusing your position of authority over me. Please stop demanding we discuss this.'

This is the best tactic if you want to remain working for them. It sounds like she's trying to 'out' you as GC.

Some terrible advice on this thread.

Maya Forstater did a brilliant job but it also cost £500k+ and took 2 years of her life and as a PP said she had to prove she was an employee on top of it. I understand she did it to change employment practices top down - not to put more pressure on employees to challenge things as individuals. She herself said no-one should ever be expected to take someone to court because it's hell.

Don't get drawn in. Grey rock on this subject as far as you can. Buy earphones for the office. Change the subject casually. If you have to say something find common ground - homophobia is a growing issue, gender stereotypes are bad, gender non-conforming people should be celebrated, sex and gender are two different things, Billy Porter is amazing in Pose isn't HE - that kind of thing.

I've worked in a woke industry on many projects in this space with people who are fully signed up TWAW and some of them are my closest work friends and outside work too. I wouldn't start arguing with them about their views in or out of the office. I find common ground and start there with personal conversations. The gender wars are a marathon not a sprint and having a heated debate in a place of work where it isn't relevant is not how to go about it.

It's perfectly fair and not hypocritical at all to expect professional feminists, paid women's rights advocates and journalists to stick their head above the parapet on this issue. That is their job. You need to keep yours.

I think one of the problems is that people who are so staunchly TRA don't feel that there are two valid sides to this argument, you're either right or a truly terrible person in their eyes.

So even though I like the sound of the "as a freelancer I stay out of controversial topics of conversation" lines that have been suggested, I would still worry that it would leave me vulnerable to losing the contract.

If it were me I would come up with a few lines that might satisfy her if she really pushes but that you can also stomach. Like "human rights are for everybody, including trans people" or "oh yes, I just want trans people to be safe and be and to get on with their lives."

Alternatively you could always go woker-than-thou, and claim that you have several friends who are trans and you try to follow their wishes to just not discuss anything about trans rights controversies in casual conversation with anybody as they have repeatedly said it find it distressing, and you just want to be a good ally so you're asking her to support this by not making it a topic of conversation in working hours.

@PacificState lol at 'paying the mortgage' and 'eating'

I agree, don't engage, say you don't want to discuss it.

You're a contractor, there to do a job, keep doing it and stay off the subject.

She sounds horrible though

This is good. Making a mental note of that. I worry about this issue in the work place.

Perhaps you could counter with what did she think about the Maya Forstater ruling? Hint at implications for HR policies.

Given she has ranted on about JKR she has obviously just followed the TRA line. As such she probably thinks Maya harassed a [non-existent] trans colleague and has no clue to actually Maya was herself the victim of harassment and won a tribunal for discrimination against her.

I would calmly state what I really feel if put in this position. Then depending on the response would suggest that we should agree to disagree and not discuss the topic further. I think the approach from there would depend on how that went down. I know this is going against the grain of the thread. But the woman is asking to talk about it.

😂perfect!

I usually pretend to think that terf refers to turf as in, people fighting over land. Failing that just say "I don't really know much about it and try to stay out of sensitive topics unless I've really thoroughly researched it"

Also you've got to love the irony of so-called trans allies using trans views for political clout at work. As if that's being a good ally. Imagine that you are trans and arrive to work to find some woman going on about trans actors being trans, it would make you feel so on the spot and "othered" as they like to say. I'm assuming that she wouldn't start this chat with a trans person, so she's also further broadcasting that she does think that she can tell who is trans and that she does treat them differently. So actually the suggestion up thread is nice , find a nonconfrontational way to reiterate how these are important life or death issues that affect real people, not workplace chat fodder.

I think I would agree with those suggesting that you say you think it is best not to have this type of conversation at work.

And if she persists (depending on whether this fits your normal character) go a bit fearful and say you have heard of people being fired for having the wrong opinions and you really like working with her, the job, and you are starting to worry about losing your job so could she please just stop talking about it.

Agree OP: this is as much as I'd ever say in your position.

Bloody annoying though, isn't it? A polite refusal to discuss a particular topic used to be sufficient. Now, if you're not spouting the slogans, sporting rainbow lanyards or announcing your pronouns, it's clear people are clocking you as a 'wrong-thinker'. Well, let them clock. No one can actually make you talk, nor can they reprimand or report you for something you haven't said.

The woman sounds like my 'born-again' aunty who you couldn't even go to dinner with, without having Jesus dinged in your ears every five seconds. Even my mother, the most patient person in the world, avoided her in the end. A pity, as she was intelligent, articulate and an artist and was really interesting to talk to until she 'found God'.

These fanatics are so irredeemably boring.

Ask her if she's ever seen this cartoon.

"Un dîner en famille" "l'affaire Dreyfus" published in 1891

She just might get the message.

This is very eloquently written & actually seems like a much more sensible approach

I don’t see the point in lying and making up friend and relations etc. As many have said, a simple “I prefer not to discuss religion or politics at work” & then talk about her cat or Christmas or work.

You could just look absolutely horrified and say, "wait... 'he'? Did you just... misgender Eddie Izzard? I... I don't feel comfortable talking about this anymore." Then every time she raises anything related in future, say, very kindly, "it's so important that we all educate ourselves on this. Isn't it." And give her your best I-forgive-you-for-being-a-bigot smile.

IRL, if I come up agst someone and I know where I know it'll be more trouble than it's worth, just raise eyebrows and say very mildly "it's not something I know much about". And then shut up.

I've had this come up at work with a colleague. I just said something like "Oh all that gender stuff just gets so toxic. I just don't want to get into it at work".

Don't say I don't know enough about it to comment. She will see you as a challenge to educate.
Try "Im sorrybut im not interested in politics, I have too much shit going on in my personal life to worry about"

I would just say I don’t think this is an appropriate topic to discuss in the workplace and it’s unprofessional to keep bringing it up. And leave it at that.

"I do not pretend to possess equal frankness with your ladyship. You may ask questions which I shall not choose to answer."

I'd just say, 'this is not an appropriate topic to talk about at work, it's so toxic' then change the subject.

Yes the problem is I have no employment rights. I can be dropped for basically any reason. Luckily it’s not a super long project, but I would like to stay on till the end.

A very astute point is she isn’t treating this like a debate where there are two sides and both are legitimate (Christian versus atheist). She’s treating it like her position is the best and only one, and everyone is expected to agree. But she doesn’t seem to realise that her position is extreme … ffs she takes Eddie izzard seriously when even good faith trans people can raise an eyebrow at his gender shenanigans.

I also sense insecurity here. Like she’s actively trying to find allies who are true believers like her. Another factor is she is very into Twitter so is caught in this bubble of very strong opinions, but doesn’t seem to realise this doesn’t translate very well in real life.

anyway thanks all for the helpful comments!