Friend not speaking to me

[Wokerati]

Nc for this. Not sure if I'm looking for advice or just to get it off my chest as I'm very confused.

Friendly gathering afew weeks ago. We've all been friends a very long time and are very open with each other and discuss controversial topics etc. At this gathering "woke" came up. I didn't think any of us are really woke, I would have said were all quite sensible live and let live types. However one friend (let's call her katy) brought it up and said we should all be woke, and specifically teach our kids that if a girl identifies as a boy then they are literally male. At this point I said, hang on I don't agree with that I don't think we should be confusing children in that way about the reality of sex. Katy looked confused and rounded on me asking what do you mean yes of course they are etc etc. I know this can be controversial and I was trying to be as neutral as possible while still giving my view. As clearly I don't think teaching children that people can change sex is a good idea. Others also joined in and we all had slightly different perspectives.

I can't remember all the discussion but at the time while it was animated I can't remember any hostility or rudeness. Katy did seem to get abit upset when we were discussing pronoun use and I was making the point how to me it's different if were talking about a very effeminate transsxual just going about their lives trying to blend in or a male sex offender (there was more nuance to this but trying to give an overview). Katy kept pushing me to say "she was born male and now female" instead of simply saying "male" and I did push back on this firmly albeit I thought In a lighthearted and polite way. Maybe that came across as rude. I did say look if that's what you believe that is totally up to you but for me personally I don't believe people can change sex and I'm not going to be teaching my children that.

Katy then got up and left and literally hasn't spoken to me since. One of my friends has told me she is upset about the conversation but hasn't said why. They are as baffled as me I think. I have reached out to Katy and apologised if I've upset her in some way. I can see she's read the message but hasn't replied. I'm feeling quite upset about the whole thing tbh. Has this happened to anyone else?

Tell her you love her, and respect her, but you are going to have to agree to differ on this. Tell her this looks at the situation and is worth a listen.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001fmtz

I think in some ways, it's probably happened to all of us. Solidarity and well done for standing your ground x

Katy is the kind of friend no one needs in their lives.

Why do these intolerant people claim to be woke?
She seems very afraid of analysing what she actually believes.

Then give her a copy of 'Invisible Women' for Christmas.

Good friends respect that one another may not share the same view. If she can't do that then..

The issue is that for people like your friend, it's a belief, a feeling of being a good nice person. It's not about science or sensible reasoning. Her reaction is like a religious believer assuming that you held the same beliefs and then discovering unexpectedly that you don't. And worse, you hold views that she categorises as wrong and bad.

She might calm down and consider her own reactions if she is a reflective kind of person, she might consider the friendship is more important and agree to disagree. Or she might not be able to get over it and that's the end of the friendship.

Many of us have lost friends due to this issue but well done for standing your ground.

The woke ones, claim to be tolerant and open-minded but just so obviously aren't as a lot won't allow any other point of view than their own, they won't allow discussion, saying 'no debate' then call us bigots!

Katy sounds a bit dim. My friends don't need to share the same beliefs as me but life is too short for friends that make me roll my eyes.

The woke ones, claim to be tolerant and open-minded but just so obviously aren't as a lot won't allow any other point of view than their own, they won't allow discussion, saying 'no debate' then call us bigots!

Yeah this is exactly what I had from one of my brothers. I knew he was 'liberal', but the vitriol he spewed at me when I disagreed with his rigid view that TWAW was unbelievable.

Unfortunately we barely speak now- once a year at Christmas really. Shame, but inevitable I think.

Not much that you can do OP that you have not done.

You have apologised. The ball is in Katy's court if she wants to accept that apology and move on.

Some people are not ever going to be able to accept that friends can have different viewpoints on issues such as this.

Good luck.

Katy ain't your friend. Ignore her unless she speaks (in a proper manner) to you first.

I think you've dodged a bullet, tbh

Hi Wokerati I can imagine this is really upsetting, especially since you’ve been friends for a long time, and felt you had the sort of relationship where you could discuss things openly. Is she still in touch with your other friends? One of them might be able to help?
If you value the friendship, it might be worth offering to meet up & let her say her piece - on the understanding that she might not be able to persuade you to agree with her. In my experience, the more you encourage people to talk around this subject, the more they find out for themselves that they are actually making no sense at all!
I had an unexpected meet up with a guy I knew (not really well) years ago. I was horrified by the bile that spewed out of him on this topic. But, he has no particular value in my life, so it was easy to just walk away. That might not be the best answer for you - although it might come to that if she’s not able to accept you hold different views

Up to you of course but it's a point of principle with me not to make or keep friends with nutters.

Exactly. I have friends who are full-on TWAW, I haven't fallen out with them or cut them off!
Possibly some additional reason for her behaviour...

Sorry. She sounds like too much effort. If you are older than 15, why do you need the drama?

"We should all teach our kids so-and-so" is akin to "we should all pick a favourite Power Ranger". So dull.

It is remarkable, isn’t it? I cannot think of any other political movement where people routinely show their allegiance by cutting ties to their friends and family. That is not political activism. It is cult behaviour.

The cutting ties thing is because she (and others who behave the same way) have been led to believe that someone who doesn't believe in gender ideology is as intolerant and unpleasant as a racist, or a homophobe. I wouldn't be friends with someone who was openly racist or homophobic, however politely and rationally they put their points across. That's the level they are operating on. If it were just a disagreement about political leanings, or moral dilemmas like veganism versus ethical meat consuming etc etc then there would be room for agreeing to disagree, and moving on with the friendship.

She might have a friend of relative who's a TW. Or maybe she knows she can't really defend her ideas in a logical way.

What @RoseslnTheHospital said. I have managed to remain friends with some TWAW friends by just not getting involved in discussions. They believe TWAW but aren’t TRA, they just think it’s all beeekind plus 1 has a trans sibling.

I haven’t been able to remain friends with my ex friend who is a full on TRA activist who thinks Susie Green is a wonderful woman & enthusiastically supports the removal of all single sex spaces. To behave like to other women, I just cannot accept that. She of course thinks I’m an appalling TERF & is baffled as to why I don’t agree with her

Yes, I've heard people say things along the lines of “you can disagree on your favourite kind of pizza, you can’t disagree on human rights” or “this isn’t politics, it’s just being a decent human being”.

Which is nonsense because all the human rights anyone has, they have because people organised politically to achieve them.

I suspect this friend has someone close to them that has a special gender identity.

It's more batshit that she started going on and pushing it so much.

Absolutely this.