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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friend not speaking to me

42 replies

Wokerati · 05/12/2022 17:02

Nc for this. Not sure if I'm looking for advice or just to get it off my chest as I'm very confused.

Friendly gathering afew weeks ago. We've all been friends a very long time and are very open with each other and discuss controversial topics etc. At this gathering "woke" came up. I didn't think any of us are really woke, I would have said were all quite sensible live and let live types. However one friend (let's call her katy) brought it up and said we should all be woke, and specifically teach our kids that if a girl identifies as a boy then they are literally male. At this point I said, hang on I don't agree with that I don't think we should be confusing children in that way about the reality of sex. Katy looked confused and rounded on me asking what do you mean yes of course they are etc etc. I know this can be controversial and I was trying to be as neutral as possible while still giving my view. As clearly I don't think teaching children that people can change sex is a good idea. Others also joined in and we all had slightly different perspectives.

I can't remember all the discussion but at the time while it was animated I can't remember any hostility or rudeness. Katy did seem to get abit upset when we were discussing pronoun use and I was making the point how to me it's different if were talking about a very effeminate transsxual just going about their lives trying to blend in or a male sex offender (there was more nuance to this but trying to give an overview). Katy kept pushing me to say "she was born male and now female" instead of simply saying "male" and I did push back on this firmly albeit I thought In a lighthearted and polite way. Maybe that came across as rude. I did say look if that's what you believe that is totally up to you but for me personally I don't believe people can change sex and I'm not going to be teaching my children that.

Katy then got up and left and literally hasn't spoken to me since. One of my friends has told me she is upset about the conversation but hasn't said why. They are as baffled as me I think. I have reached out to Katy and apologised if I've upset her in some way. I can see she's read the message but hasn't replied. I'm feeling quite upset about the whole thing tbh. Has this happened to anyone else?

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 05/12/2022 19:51

Your friend is a twat OP.

I have had many experiences like yours, well worse ones in fact.

KittensNotMittens · 05/12/2022 20:00

Why are those who preach wokeness the most intolerant?

Toseland · 05/12/2022 20:00

Try to keep talking, you only need to tell the truth. It sounds like she's shocked and hopefully you have made her think, people need time to process.

MichelleScarn · 05/12/2022 20:07

So you have to believe what she wants she to, or you're not her friend? Tell her back at you, if you don't believe what I do you're not my friend so stalemate! (If you want to join her in foot stamping childishness that is!)

In reality I'd back off the friendship!

Wokerati · 05/12/2022 20:29

Thank you for all the messages and perspective, it is really helpful:)

Those saying Katy is not a good friend, the problem is she is actually an amazing friend. She's so caring, kind and considerate and has always been there for me, and i hope ive been there for her. But equally we have always been very open and when talking been very much free to disagree- I have had her disagree with me on stuff and the same back. I would genuinely say she is more kind and compassionate in general than I am - I'm not saying I'm horrible of course! But I've regularly been described as assertive etc rather than 'kind'. I work in a male dominated industry and it suits me fine - go into work do the job take the money and go home. There's quite a lot of disagreement in my job but its all just business and nobody takes any offence (of course the disagreement is not rude or personal it just simply has to be done for us to be effective in our role and nobody bats an eyelid). I actually think Katy being so kind and compassionate goes someway to explaining the different perspective - she seemed to be saying as "trans" (only putting that in quotes as I know there is huge variation in the demographics of this group) people are so prone to self harm and su*cide, that is why the language is so important and absolutely must be used. Whereas to me, I simply can't lie, and tell my children lies, to protect someone else's fragile mental health. I don't see that as malicious, it's just someone else's mental health treatment is nothing to do with me or my family. Katy also said her workplace , which is in a very "kind" non profit industry and is almost exclusively women (I'm not meaning this to be sexist in any way just an observation) has done lots of training and is very "aware" of how important it is to be woke which I think reading between the lines is where she has now got this idea it is her job to educate others and their children? To put it bluntly in my job we don't have time to do woke training; time is money and we're expected to make money for the business.

Those saying it seemed cult-like, I didn't want to say but to be honest it really did come across that way. I'm not saying any ideology in particular is a cult, but when Katy was "correcting" my language when I was talking about pronouns of a completely fictional male sex offender (e.g. interrupting me to say "you mean SHE" , you mean "BORN male and now female", "you mean HER penis" !!!) she had this strange kindof smiling patient expression that did really throw me off. Like she was patiently correcting an old racist grandma at Christmas. I remember thinking, this is like you have been literally brainwashed and it's unnerving.

I'm really not interested in changing her mind on this topic, but i do want my friend back. I'm not going to apologise again for upsetting her as I think actually that can make things worse, but I think I will send her another message asking if she is OK. As some people said this may be very personal for her or she may have other things going on that I have unwittingly triggered. Or she may just think I'm an awful racist homophobic bigot 🤷‍♀️. Man i hate all this division

OP posts:
TheirEminence · 05/12/2022 21:04

Many of us have been there and I know it hurts. Your friend can’t defend her position using reason, so she is using the emotional ties between you to hurt you. She is ghosting you to convince you that you have committed some unspeakably heinous act and are no longer her moral equal. But you haven’t and because things have moved on since the height of trans-mania, most sensible people will agree.

I pity your former friend. May she be happy among the true believers. But I would never be able to trust someone again who did that to me.

Backstreets · 05/12/2022 21:28

Almost sounds like it’s the first time she’s had an opposing viewpoint on this, especially from someone she likes/respects, which really goes to show how much people censor themselves on this topic. She probably needs a little time to process, hopefully she’ll reach out when emotions aren’t running high!

BellaAmorosa · 05/12/2022 21:37

Very distressing for you, @Wokerati. You've done nothing wrong, so don't feel bad. But - and this might sound heartless - I don't think it will do any good to reach out to her again. She may see that as an admission by you that she is "in the right" and this will, paradoxically, make her less inclined to see your point of view. Just my opinion.

EpicChaos · 05/12/2022 23:52

" I think reading between the lines is where she has now got this idea it is her job to educate others and their children? "

Yeah, about that! ...
That's not education, it's indoctrination!
She has no right whatsoever to force her views on you, or more particularly, any children, be they yours/anyone elses, or her own!
She is not your friend, in fact, she is no friend of any woman, she is putting women and children in danger with her ideological stance.
If you must contact her again, let it be to tell her to get lost and add a link to this part of MN and this thread, let her come here and justify her stance!

JustSomeoneSomewhere · 06/12/2022 00:30

Look, I think I used to be a "Katy" in a lot of ways - and I still may be in many others! As a matter of fact, I think I may have been the most insufferable token women imaginable for the longest amount of time (and, again, in some ways I still may be)! I'm sorry for what I did, but it's true! And maybe, just maybe, it helps in a little way:

When I was in my 20s and early 30s and, literally, one of the only women at my firm within my male dominated area in an already male dominated field, I believed in "pure meritocracy". How else, I would argue, would someone like me easily be climbing the ranks of the corporate ladder ahead of men?

I genuinely didn't think that, as a white woman, I was at any disadvantage. At all.

When my then boss was accused of disadvantaging women, I thought the accusers were bonkers! Here I was, after all, a woman, too, younger and more junior than the ones who were complaining, and I was doing splendidly. Oh, how little did I even contemplate how much "younger, more junior" mattered! Of course I did well! I was nowhere near the level of impact or seniority required to even figure on the "potential threat" radar. And, oh, how that changed once I did get there!

When the trans thing came up, I jumped straight onto that train. Of course I did! After all, there were people more in need and more vulnerable than me, and they needed me to show up for them! Besides, it wasn't as though I knew anyone who was trans in any capacity that mattered. There was mum's retired former work colleague/my own former history teacher (as a man) - over for dinner at hers maybe once a year when I was, too! Genuinely pleasant. There was my friend's partner - born female, and the reason my formerly "lesbian" friend now called themselves "bi". But, again, whatever!

It took me being confronted in a professional capacity (I suppose this may have helped; my role was to "be the boss" and try to stay emotionally uninvolved) with a female employee being deeply uncomfortable with sharing a hotel room with a female-identifying, biologically male colleague for me to realise that, yes, actually, this scenario makes me feel relieved I'm on a "gets a single room every time" paygrade, and I wouldn't want to, either, if I weren't. I just genuinely didn't get it until someone said "hey, boss, I find this invasive on a level I can't quite nail down" - and then, I got it immediately without her having to!

Now, for the record, I guess I'm still "Wokerati Central" in myriad respects. And I won't apologise - I don't subscribe to the idea of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But "Katy" being a woman in an almost exclusively woman environment struck a chord with me: personally, I just never genuinely "got" any of it until some pivotal moment made it hit where it hurt. "Katy" may be the same!

BlackForestCake · 06/12/2022 06:59

Like she was patiently correcting an old racist grandma at Christmas.

There was a video recently of someone explaining how she’d used an animal training clicker to bully her parents into using opposite-sex pronouns for her, and appeared to believe she had behaved reasonably.

I'm starting to understand the reasons for the wild statistics like "75% of trans ppl have been thrown out of parents’ home!" I’d tell her to sling her hook too.

KittensNotMittens · 06/12/2022 08:19

Or the one of a daughter using a water pistol on their mum for using the correct sex based pronouns on someone who had decided to use alternatives. And the mum grovelling an apology to try harder.

ageism sits well with these people. My mum would have shoved the clicker/pistol where the sun doesn’t shine. And if I saw anyone doing that I’d be doing the same.

Snoken · 06/12/2022 08:39

I think it's hard to be friends when you have such differing views on existential issues. I don't agree that she should grey rock you though, she should still be able to have a conversation with you, and chances are that in time you will both slightly tweak your standpoints (maybe especially her), and find some common ground.

What I don't like is that you are calling this being woke. That is not what woke is at all, being woke means that you notice and stand up to injustices in the world, especially racism. I don't like it when people misuse the word, as I think we all need to be woke and it shouldn't ever be seen as something negative.

Wokerati · 06/12/2022 09:01

Snoken · 06/12/2022 08:39

I think it's hard to be friends when you have such differing views on existential issues. I don't agree that she should grey rock you though, she should still be able to have a conversation with you, and chances are that in time you will both slightly tweak your standpoints (maybe especially her), and find some common ground.

What I don't like is that you are calling this being woke. That is not what woke is at all, being woke means that you notice and stand up to injustices in the world, especially racism. I don't like it when people misuse the word, as I think we all need to be woke and it shouldn't ever be seen as something negative.

Just to confirm on this it was Katy who specifically used the word woke for this issue not me- I wouldn't necessarily call this issue ' woke' either. It started like this:

Katy: "in order to be woke we must all tell our children that if a born female identifies as a boy then HE literally is male etc etc" . That is where I said I disagree as I think that is confusing children.

OP posts:
Snoken · 06/12/2022 09:06

@Wokerati Yea, Katy is weird and wrong.

LaughingPriest · 06/12/2022 09:13

Could you bring up in an "unrelated" way an example of how you are friends with e.g. a Catholic, how you discussed transubstantiation and feel very clearly that you can't make yourself believe that bread cells literally transform into flesh cells, whereas she/ he does fervently believe that... yet you are still able to talk about people who've taken communion in the same way etc?

She may or may not recognise the parallels in male cells literally turning into female ones but it might be a good conversation point?

For me I think I couldn't begin discussing this without at least trying to establish what the other person means when they use terms like "sex" or "woman" but it looks like she can't even face doing that.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/12/2022 09:24

This sounds to me a lot like a person who belongs to a religion being challenged for the first time. Confused and conflicted, defensive.

Hopefully she'll behave like an adult and either accept that 'atheism' is valid but continue in her 'faith' - or she may start to question it.

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