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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So that's why Susie Green left

877 replies

DistantVworp · 02/12/2022 13:27

Charity commission launches formal inquiry into Mermaids:
twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1598666394610147329?s=20&t=x_Supvwk6lHkKBR7a-ESSw

About bloody time!

OP posts:
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28
BatCheeseIsFine · 03/12/2022 23:19

But that binder advice would be about medical best practice, and conservative minimising of intervention. I think a lot of gender ideology is about actively going in the opposite direction from that and using things like binders as a symbol of membership of a special group. The idea of it being sent to you in secret probably makes it even more appealing. It’s part of the grooming-style “we understand you, your fuddy-duddy old bigot parents don’t”. It would detract from all that and make them seem more to say “actually they’re not very healthy”.

BreadInCaptivity · 03/12/2022 23:24

Britinme · 03/12/2022 22:27

We have to talk about parents who enable in this context too. I know personally one woman (a single parent) whose daughter socially transitioned to non-binary pronouns and name a couple of years ago, and earlier this year this woman was complaining on Facebook because she couldn't find a doctor in our state that would put her thirteen year old on testosterone, and was going to take them to a big city in a nearby state to find a doctor who would. The 'suicide' threat is a powerful stimulus to parents to enable.

There was an interesting blog about a parent who had enabled her child.

pitt.substack.com/p/true-believer

In short, lesbian parents very enmeshed in the queer community/ethos.

Children raised as gender neutral. When child asked aged 3 if they were a boy or girl, told they can choose.

Child (male) "chose" to be a girl. Decision made that child is trans.

Second child later also identifies as trans.

Penny finally drops that rather than giving their child a "choice" they have been responsible for withholding his identity (as a male) from him and introducing concepts a young child is incapable of navigating. All cheered on by their social circle.

"This experience for me has felt like leaving a cult, a cult that would have me sacrifice my child to the gods of gender ideology, in the name of social justice and collective liberation. I have left this cult, and I am never turning back."

SinnerBoy · 04/12/2022 01:43

ResisterRex · Yesterday 20:34

"Transgender children are turning to the dark web and overseas for puberty blockers, Mermaids has warned as it demands free access for under 18s"

They are saying "Oh no! If you don't let them get their illegal drugs from our Webberley friends, without your knowledge, they'll go to the dark web! How can our friends profit from them by selling illegal drugs, if they buy them from China?"

WarriorN · 04/12/2022 06:04

We have to talk about parents who enable in this context too.

The goldsmiths researcher who did the report for mermaids is one such parent.

Kucingsparkles · 04/12/2022 07:53

I think a lot of gender ideology is about actively going in the opposite direction from that and using things like binders as a symbol of membership of a special group.

I agree. It seems to me that the young people sucked into this cult ideology are actually desperately seeking belonging (and approval and affirmation and so on). That's why everything, including all their emotions, has to be "on display" as it were.

Thingybob · 04/12/2022 07:58

WarriorN · 04/12/2022 06:04

We have to talk about parents who enable in this context too.

The goldsmiths researcher who did the report for mermaids is one such parent.

There is certainly something unusual about those enabling parents. Many seem to have a history of MH problems (from their self reports) and very rigid thinking which makes me wonder if many are on the autistic spectrum.

I think it was Stella O'Malley, on one of her podcasts, who described them as very loving parents although generally over protective, over invested and over analytical.

When I read things like this I have to wonder what planet these people come from. This was written by a Mermaids Trustee who describe themselves as non-binary and queer. They are also a pediatrician.

When my child first raised questions about their gender identity (“Mum, how do people know if they are a girl or a boy? Because I think I’m a boy”) I went looking for evidence to help me decide how to respond.

After about six months of being supportive and non-judgemental while they continued to express their questions, my child asked to change their name and pronouns, haircut and clothes to reflect their male gender identity.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/im-worried-about-the-future-of-healthcare-for-trans-youth-a-parents-view/

WarriorN · 04/12/2022 07:58

A life time of being on social media seems to cause a mh issue of over sharing.

We are naturally predisposed to cultural tribalism; in the past it would have strengthened social groups and communities. (It's how I feel religion evolved.)

In the digital age it's a mess.

WarriorN · 04/12/2022 08:08

Thingy, I agree. I've seen similar parents in sling and bf groups and all moved on to channel the trans ideology mantra.

But l also know a few mothers with late diagnosed autism who see through the tra bs and now have daughters who they're patiently guided through the mess.

I think anyone who doesn't get consumerism or truly understand biology is prone to believing the idea that you've been born in the wrong body.

I do think mothers are generally the ones spending more time worrying about their child's happiness, purely because it's still still generally mothers who move to part time or sahm. Also more likely to have single full time mothers than fathers. Many of the women I saw in those fb groups were sahm. Fb was a source of support for them. Especially if and when their child was referred for send, particularly autism.

SereneSemolina · 04/12/2022 08:25

There's an insta mum I used to follow who "has a trans child" - I think this child expressed their true self as a girl from age 2/3 and from that moment on this child has had their name changed and been socially transitioned - all photographed and documented on Instagram. They're only about 7 now. I had to unfollow as it all felt very intrusive and wrong. This mum has multiple posts up that quote the "rather a live daughter than a dead son" thinking, including one that says that less than 1% of early childhood transitioners detransition, but that their suicide rates if not aided onto their new identity are very high. This is her basis for following the path she has.

Now, none of this appears evidence based. But even if it was, how can a child that has been told from an age practically before they could walk or talk properly that they are the opposite 'gender' been given a different name and socially transitioned - all in a public space - possibly begin to be able to unpick that? And if you genuinely believe that your primary age child is at risk of suicide, which must be so unusual, then why not engage mental health services, not be a "trans parent" on Instagram?

MrsJamin · 04/12/2022 08:34

I know parents who, given their child had a sniff of wearing gender-non-conforming clothes and playing with toys deemed as those from the opposite sex, would absolutely relish the opportunity to announce it to all their friends that their child was trans and would see it as a way to show how very cool, hip, now, accepting and inclusive they are.

Unfortunately these are mostly uber-leftie evangelical Christians who are desperate to let everyone know that they are very different from right wing fundamentalist Christians. I don't see the same zeal from friends of mine not from liberal Christian backgrounds. It's not Mun**ns per se, it's more a walking talking example of your belief system.

InvisibleDragon · 04/12/2022 08:49

I think a lot of gender ideology is about actively going in the opposite direction from that and using things like binders as a symbol of membership of a special group.

I also wonder whether it is also about a physical display of mental anguish? That a binder, or surgery is both a literal symbol of suffering and an external validation that their suffering is real: they must be truly unhappy because the NHS is going to cut their breasts off to make them better.

This then also feeds a sunk-costs behaviour of making progressively more radical changes (blockers -> hormones -> top surgery -> bottom surgery) because the suffering hasn't got better but to acknowledge that transition was an irreversible mistake would be soul-destroying.

It is not dissimilar to being in an abusive relationship: after the love bombing stage ends things get bad fast and it is more hopeful and appealing to blame and change yourself (I'm not good enough for him / I'm not trans enough) then to confront the reality that something is very wrong. And the more and longer you change yourself, the more difficult it gets to escape.

WarriorN · 04/12/2022 09:13

There has been comparisons to the placebo effect of some operations (I believe a common shoulder op has been shown to only be effective via placebo effect, possibly some back surgery) and pills are proven to be so.

Some have described a euphoric high post mastectomy- receiving active physical medical care is a very strong evidence that others care about you.

Despite all the improved discussion of mh, I do believe people still feel it's not as socially "acceptable" a difficulty as real physical illness is.

Clymene · 04/12/2022 10:19

@BreadInCaptivity - thank you for linking that blog. So interesting reading how easy it is to get sucked in. She writes very clearly about how much we shape our children. When I realised the power I had over mine when they were little, it was quite frightening.

I wonder if she had only one son if she would have continued to trans the elder son?

BatCheeseIsFine · 04/12/2022 10:21

Totally agree about the immediate effects of making a change and then it wearing off and having to keep going. I think that can be linked to self-loathing/low self-esteem - you are becoming a “new” person and leaving your old self behind, or convince yourself you are, which brings relief until the same feelings resurface. I suspect that may be why there’s a link with having been abused as a child, as well as with feeling like you don’t fit in or aren’t good/cool/interesting enough for whatever reason.

I’ve seen the same effect with collecting conditions as identities - adhd, autism, anxiety etc - and then I’ve seen people who do this move on to non-binary, and then ftm or mtf. Social media and woke workplace culture provides a stage for announcing your new “true self” and receiving more praise and attention each time.

SmartWatch · 04/12/2022 10:46

Check out the Keffals thread on KF. That's where they get drugs and binders etc. Youngish adults that have grown up entirely online and have MH issues passing it on to younger kids by encouraging them on discord servers they find through gaming. Which in itself is most likely to attract the kids with complex issues who don't have an outside life, don't play sports etc. A nasty vicious circle of complex issues echoing through the second generation now that have been able to live their lives almost entirely online. And I say that as someone that works in tech and enjoys gaming.

ResisterRex · 04/12/2022 11:00

SmartWatch · 04/12/2022 10:46

Check out the Keffals thread on KF. That's where they get drugs and binders etc. Youngish adults that have grown up entirely online and have MH issues passing it on to younger kids by encouraging them on discord servers they find through gaming. Which in itself is most likely to attract the kids with complex issues who don't have an outside life, don't play sports etc. A nasty vicious circle of complex issues echoing through the second generation now that have been able to live their lives almost entirely online. And I say that as someone that works in tech and enjoys gaming.

Added to which, we do not know the impact of PBs on brain maturation.

WarriorN · 04/12/2022 11:08

Absolutely Bat

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2022 11:26

What gets me is none of this has been properly researched and all of these questions are dead interesting.

Its also nuts that parents who have not affirmed have been threatened with social services but those who have an insta kid from age 2 aren't even questioned and in fact are hailed with wow.

I see the comment about collective or group identity above and I think its a dead important one from my own experiences and its one that I don't think is well appreciated.

The whole narrative of identity politics leans in on the idea of individualism and 'true authentic self' yet there is no discourse into group identities at the same time.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_formation
I've talked about this on MN before and used this link and quote from the article to make the point.

Identities are formed on many levels. The micro-level is self-definition, relations with people, and issues as seen from a personal or an individual perspective. The meso-level pertains to how identities are viewed, formed, and questioned by immediate communities and/or families. The macro-level are the connections among and individuals and issues from a national perspective. The global level connects individuals, issues, and groups at a worldwide level.

One of the things I've struggled with is, is effectively the breakdown of my identity due to what's happened in my family.

The simple innocent question "do you have any brothers or sisters?" always throws me now.

I can't say I have a sister because my identity was formed having a brother. My relationship with him was a relationship with a brother. If I'm trying to relate to others who grew up with sisters it just doesn't fit. I didn't have that relationship. There were none of those socially created situations or relationship conflicts.

Equally, saying I have a brother also has its own complications now and social mess particularly if you don't know the politics of the person you are talking to (I tend now to not give a shit - if people judge me to hell with it).

My identity formed as the elder sister of a young boy. That was our identities as a family. And that grenade thrown in on that, I think ultimately is why our family imploded.

Ive got a huge amount of the 'it's just like being gay' stuff almost as a way to relate to me and to be kind, but I always point out its different because it affects my identity as a collective unit. My brother rejected me and my husband by making out we were bigoted and unaccepting BEFORE he had even told us.

My mum had to go through a lot of 'if you don't then you don't love me' nonsense which from a grown man is frankly nothing short of abusive. From what I can tell my parents are still in touch with my brother but it's exceptionally limited even though they have responded with 'how high?' to every 'jump' order.

I think a lot to do with this was the fact he couldnt maintain his new identity with his old. Indeed that was one of the things that came up at the time - a deliberate rejection of family rather than family rejecting was a commonly observed phenomena at the time it happened (this was prior to it taking off as a massive movement). It was a deliberate disassociation with the past.

This does seem to happen in some families with teenagers / young people. However this really contrasts to families which are over invested in their child's identity from a very early age. And I think this is an important observation.

Our identities do not exist in isolation. They are also relational - with the family relation being the most important.

We know that trauma affects identity formation.

And groups like Mermaids who help create a group identity and sense of belonging are worth noting.

This collective 'formed family' idea can replace actual family. We tend to see patterns with this related to trauma or indeed abuse. And it can be culty. The nature of living in an echo chamber where other ideas are not present is unhealthy full stop. It's not a state of affairs that lends itself building relationships outside the group. It's isolationist from society as a whole.

I think the emphasis on looking at identity as an individual thing rather than identity formation as being multi faceted and multi levelled is totally wrong.

Not much is being talked about in this.

It has implications for those in the families of those who identify as trans too. I do think it harms them - the transwidows being the only group who, to date, have really found much of a voice on that. Parents haven't talked about the impact on themselves so far - only their children. Siblings haven't spoken out on the impact on them. Nor have the children of late transitioner. I largely this this is all to come and it will come. The harms to those who buy into the ideology and make life changing decisions are better seen but the ripples do go further and are worth noting.

When you start to note them, you start to see how major issues have been neglected and not even considered in the rush to change gender identity. The idea that its a neutral process only involving the person who transitions is a complete nonsense. And that is precisely why its one of the reasons why its totally different to coming out as homosexual.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2022 11:33

SmartWatch · 04/12/2022 10:46

Check out the Keffals thread on KF. That's where they get drugs and binders etc. Youngish adults that have grown up entirely online and have MH issues passing it on to younger kids by encouraging them on discord servers they find through gaming. Which in itself is most likely to attract the kids with complex issues who don't have an outside life, don't play sports etc. A nasty vicious circle of complex issues echoing through the second generation now that have been able to live their lives almost entirely online. And I say that as someone that works in tech and enjoys gaming.

We've seen disturbing things with kids into gaming at a very early age.

DH and I have played online games and been part of communities. Dh has on numerous occasions pulled people up on recruiting 13 year olds to discord or told them to stop acting inappropriately whilst there are minors present.

The toxic masculinity of these communities lead to me pretending I was male in these groups because I got treated with respect and when I was out as a female the abuse was appalling. Ultimately it one one of the things that killed wanting to do it for me.

I can't imagine dealing with that as a 13 year old. It was complex enough as an adult.

Ofcourseshecan · 04/12/2022 11:51

This is good news, and long overdue. But the Charity Commission is (in my opinion) notoriously weak and reluctant to crack down on even blatant abuse. So I don’t dare hope for much.

Ofcourseshecan · 04/12/2022 11:57

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2022 11:33

We've seen disturbing things with kids into gaming at a very early age.

DH and I have played online games and been part of communities. Dh has on numerous occasions pulled people up on recruiting 13 year olds to discord or told them to stop acting inappropriately whilst there are minors present.

The toxic masculinity of these communities lead to me pretending I was male in these groups because I got treated with respect and when I was out as a female the abuse was appalling. Ultimately it one one of the things that killed wanting to do it for me.

I can't imagine dealing with that as a 13 year old. It was complex enough as an adult.

Sorry you had such a bad time, Red. This is a very interesting angle that needs a lot more coverage. Now you’ve written this, it seems an obvious way for predators to groom vulnerable children. I didn’t see it till you told me, though.

ResisterRex · 04/12/2022 11:58

Thread showing Children In Need money that went to the Mermaids helpline:

twitter.com/famedtrust/status/1599369978419220482?s=46&t=exEUx5omO4zmNte8flSEcA

nilsmousehammer · 04/12/2022 12:04

MrsJamin · 04/12/2022 08:34

I know parents who, given their child had a sniff of wearing gender-non-conforming clothes and playing with toys deemed as those from the opposite sex, would absolutely relish the opportunity to announce it to all their friends that their child was trans and would see it as a way to show how very cool, hip, now, accepting and inclusive they are.

Unfortunately these are mostly uber-leftie evangelical Christians who are desperate to let everyone know that they are very different from right wing fundamentalist Christians. I don't see the same zeal from friends of mine not from liberal Christian backgrounds. It's not Mun**ns per se, it's more a walking talking example of your belief system.

And a child being an extension of your identity and social status.

Two minutes on the baby name boards illustrates the normality of this and the question being asked of 'is this name about you, or are you doing it for the child with the child's best interests in mind?'

nilsmousehammer · 04/12/2022 12:06

ResisterRex · 04/12/2022 11:58

Thread showing Children In Need money that went to the Mermaids helpline:

twitter.com/famedtrust/status/1599369978419220482?s=46&t=exEUx5omO4zmNte8flSEcA

There will be much wailing of 'but it all looked and sounded so nice! '

Yes. This is why safeguarding doesn't work on awww bless principles and outward appearances.

nilsmousehammer · 04/12/2022 12:09

In fact the common thread here (and then I promise to shut up) is that middle class liberal sentiment and keeping up with the Joneses through virtue signalling and status seeking of Look How Progressive And Open Minded We Are is going to turn out to be the biggest core enabler of this happening.