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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So that's why Susie Green left

877 replies

DistantVworp · 02/12/2022 13:27

Charity commission launches formal inquiry into Mermaids:
twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1598666394610147329?s=20&t=x_Supvwk6lHkKBR7a-ESSw

About bloody time!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
SereneSemolina · 03/12/2022 11:44

And where does this leave the current legal action against the NHS for not rapidly enough giving in evidenced based hormones and blockers to kids?!

SereneSemolina · 03/12/2022 11:47

This surely has to be viewed in the round. It was Mermaids and SG agitating and advocating for easier and quicker access to drugs and the legal complaint is based upon it.

VestofAbsurdity · 03/12/2022 11:49

Yes there needs to be urgent Public Enquiries/Criminal Enquiries into ALL of this, every single aspect of it - the capture by Government Departments and publicly funded bodies, the use by the same of Lobbying Organisations that NO-ONE FUCKING VOTED FOR infiltrating, directing, demanding and influencing Law and Policy. The general public did not vote for these groups to re-write the law and alter society to fit their vision, the general public did not vote for tax payer money to fund this nor do the general public approve.

We have to have full scale transparent enquiries that cover everything, leave no stone unturned and all organisations whether public or private, all branches of Government must be scrutinised.

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2022 11:52

SereneSemolina · 03/12/2022 11:44

And where does this leave the current legal action against the NHS for not rapidly enough giving in evidenced based hormones and blockers to kids?!

It's puzzling. I don't know if the NHS can concede that its policy has been influenced by Mermaids. As it's the GLP (?) that is bringing the legal action, they may well feel the need to proceed as an act of faith and trust in MM?

Even if there is a palace coup at MM, I should think that the refreshed management/power structure wants the legal action to go ahead in the hopes of undermining the Cass Review and establishing a network of user led organisations in the NHS on the model of the Indigo Gender Service in Manchester.

indigogenderservice.uk/

nilsmousehammer · 03/12/2022 11:58

VestofAbsurdity · 03/12/2022 11:49

Yes there needs to be urgent Public Enquiries/Criminal Enquiries into ALL of this, every single aspect of it - the capture by Government Departments and publicly funded bodies, the use by the same of Lobbying Organisations that NO-ONE FUCKING VOTED FOR infiltrating, directing, demanding and influencing Law and Policy. The general public did not vote for these groups to re-write the law and alter society to fit their vision, the general public did not vote for tax payer money to fund this nor do the general public approve.

We have to have full scale transparent enquiries that cover everything, leave no stone unturned and all organisations whether public or private, all branches of Government must be scrutinised.

This.

And it will eventually have to be realised that every single policy, every single employee who was at a training, all of it has to be regarded as compromised.

This is the biggest safeguarding fail in British history, and it's gone right to the bloody top in terms of useful idiots enabling alongside those who knew exactly what they were doing.

We had the minister for safeguarding on for a 'webchat' <cough> not that long ago really, but HQ protected them from my question as to how they guarded government departments from political capture. There's been a lot of well intentioned but ultimately unhelpful protecting going on, its how this has been enabled to slide so far.

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 03/12/2022 12:08

So what seems to have happened is...
Charity Commission approach Mermaids about complaints.
Mermaids commission an Inquiry by the Social Justice Inquiry hoping to stop CC looking at them.
Social Justice Inquiry question MM employees, many of whom are trans and as such are terribly oppressed.
The employees say the structure of MM is terribly oppressive and don't centre the oppressed minorities it states it does.
MM trustees think - these are the complaints, we're oppressive and not diverse enough. We need different safeguarding - not fuddy-duddy safeguarding from the 90s. Oh, and Susie, you've got to go - we've checked your privilege using that self assessment internet questionnaire and you scored too highly. We need someone who scored lower - ponders about Munroe...
MM supporters put out blogs about MM needing less conservative, less cis (their words not mine) stronger leadership
CC read MM action plan and tell them - are you fucking serious? Give your head a wobble. We're going to have to open an inquiry.
MM supporters, but we're oppressed, we got rid of Susie The Oppressor, how is this happening...

moggerhanger · 03/12/2022 12:40

Apologies if this has already been covered:

  • Mermaids would have referred themselves to the CC over the Breslin incident, as it's a "serious incident" that they were obliged to report. (It's not a sign of Mermaids being exceptionally diligent/transparent!) There may well have been other SI reports (the willy waver etc). SI reports often trigger a compliance case, where the CC asks more questions. Compliance cases are common and often close with no further action by the Commission. However, lots of SI reports can be an indicator of governance issues.
  • a statutory enquiry is (obviously) a much bigger deal than a compliance case. Compliance cases can move into being statutory enquiries if the CC feels there are sufficient grounds. SEs are far less common than compliance cases.
  • details of any charity trustee can be found on the CC website. Mermaids is here: register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search/-/charity-details/5054976/trustees
Emotionalsupportviper · 03/12/2022 12:40

LizzieSiddal · 02/12/2022 23:17

After reading what employees/trustees have said about her, I’m hoping Suzy will show more of that “lack of self reflection” and gives another interview to The Guardian.

Probably got a big payoff and a gagging order . . .

EwwSprouts · 03/12/2022 12:42

Thanks @RedToothBrush for much additional potential context.

ForeverFaithless · 03/12/2022 12:52

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 03/12/2022 09:06

Scuse the laziness...

Has there been any input on this thread from our 2 mates RMW and Marg?

Or are they conspicuously absent?

Yes Margy plopper hasn't showed up with 'evidence' and telling us how to think

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/12/2022 13:11

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 03/12/2022 09:13

Thanks. I am off on Snark hunt - feeling feisty. Banned from Twitter and I am not admitting fault to get back on (Utterly bobbins is not a hateful phrase)

Oh Marg.... Marg.... where are you....?!?!

I am also banned, for a similarly innocuous tweet which they claim is "harassing" and "inciting other people to violence" It was a single tweet about JR-M, (so hardly harassment) asleep in the Commons. I have asked several times for them to point out what was violent or hateful about it but they don't even respond.

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/12/2022 13:11

Sorry - not meaning to digress.

flyingbuttress43 · 03/12/2022 13:58

I noticed that the Telegraph got its teeth into the whole trans issues some while ago and has been carrying articles several times a week - too many to start MN threads on them every time. Keep watching their space. They will continue to uncover stuff, not just things like Mermaids sending breast binders out either. They are not going to let this go.

nauticant · 03/12/2022 14:04

I wonder if it's anything to do with Charles Moore. He became a sort of trans ally when a young female relative transitioned but I can't imagine it would have been a stable position for him to hold if he'd been doing his own research into the issue and not simply believing everything told to him by the YFR.

Birdsweepsin · 03/12/2022 14:27

New Job Description out

twitter.com/ExcelPope/status/1598994387459272704?s=20&t=n5ylR3R1imixou1Sc3xZcg

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 14:29

According to various research, women make up a whopping 70% of cult members around the globe.

I may be a little fixated with this.

You might want to look at the ratio of referals to GIDS based on sex in the last few years.

I believe the numbers put it about 70% female to 30% male. Is that a coincidence or should someone sit up and start asking the right questions about this???

Not only this, but apparently the average age women join religious cults is in their early twenties with them most predeposed to it in their late teens / early twenties.

Looking futher:
As other authors (Buxant et al., 2007, Galanter, 1982, Spero, 1982) have reported, we highlighted a high prevalence of psychiatric and addictive disorders during the year preceding commitment to the group: anxiety disorders (51.6%), mood disorders (45.2%) and addictions (12.9%).

and

Most former cult members stayed in the cult for a long time and found it difficult to leave the group. The average length of membership was almost 9 years. However, the repercussions of membership were important and affected several areas of their life, be it on a social, family, marital, professional or financial level. No part of their life was spared. This inability to change, despite damage and risk, is a close fit to Goodman's addictive disorders criteria (Goodman, 1990). Other features in common with addictive disorders (American Psychiatric Association, 2013) are that all activities of the members are devoted to the cult and that a lot of time is spent in the service of the cult, resulting in social impairment. A previous study found that, during membership, the cultic group held an important and even an exclusive place in the life of the member (Buxant and Saroglou, 2008). Additionally, we found that factors for staying in the group are primarily internal to the group, indicating how central the cult is to the members' life.

and

A previous study found that cult members felt attachment insecurity before joining the cult (Buxant et al., 2007). Moreover, an insecure attachment is usually associated with addictive disorders (Caspers et al., 2005, Reynaud, 2016, Wedekind et al., 2013).

and this one is dead interesting, and possibly would need taking into consideration in terms of long term outcomes and medicalisation. It would beg the question about whether medicalisation itself rather than membership of a social group may provide relief from symptoms...

The majority of members reported feeling psychological relief at the beginning of membership (Galanter, 1996, Salande and Perkins, 2011). This psychological improvement is termed a “honeymoon” in the literature (Galanter and Buckley, 1978, Levine, 1981, Wilson, 1972). For some individuals, addictive disorders serve as a coping strategy to reduce psychological distress (American Society of Addiction Medicine, 2013, Reynaud, 2016, Sinha, 2008). In our sample, we observed a decrease in depressive disorders and addictive disorders during cult membership. We can hypothesize that for some members, the commitment to and involvement with the group managed to relieve psychological suffering and that the context of the cultic group contributed to the lessening of addictive disorders. Another hypothesis for the improvement in addictive disorders is that members who have addictive disorders before joining the cult replace those disorders with cult commitment. This hypothesis is consistent with the phenomenon of addiction “switch” observed in addictive disorders (DuPont, 2017, Haute Autorité de Santé, 2007).

I beleive its known that autistic people are also more at risk of cults (for some of the reasons above which are known co-morbidities). I'm trying to find some data / research which might relate to this, but so far I'm drawing a blank.

The closest I've found so far has been about radicalisation and neurodiversity.

In 2021 there was a controversial speech from a QC on the subject of radicalisation and neurodiversity:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/07/staggeringly-high-number-of-people-with-autism-on-uk-prevent-scheme
A “staggeringly high” number of autistic people are referred to the government’s anti-radicalisation Prevent programme, a terror laws watchdog will say, calling for discussion about terrorism cases in which the disability features.

Jonathan Hall QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, will say autism and terrorism has not received much public attention due to “a very real and respectable fear that making any sort of link will lead to stigma”.

But in a speech as part of the thinktank Bright Blue’s Ludgate lecture series online, he will argue that the criminal justice outcome may not always be the right one for autistic people and needs scrutiny.

This raised a considerable amount of criticism and it was stated that there was no empiral evidence of a link.

www.bournemouth.ac.uk/news/2021-07-12/opinion-no-evidence-links-autism-terrorism-ill-judged-statements-headlines-will-lead-stigma
These remarks and the coverage of the story are indeed staggering to me as a researcher of autism spectrum conditions – but not in the way the authors intended.

At present, there’s no empirical evidence to suggest that autistic people are significantly more susceptible to radicalisation or terrorism. Yet most coverage of the issue fails to discuss the reasons behind autistic people being disproportionately reported to the scheme and instead focuses on limited aspects of the data.

Grossly oversimplified coverage like this risks serious damage to some of the most vulnerable in society. While it’s true that autistic people are more likely than non-autistic people to be over-represented in the Prevent scheme, this statement belies a much more complex story.

Studies show that autistic people are no more likely than non-autistic people to hold sympathetic views for violent protest or terrorism.

In fact, there is some evidence that terror networks are actually more reluctant to recruit people with any kind of mental health problem, perhaps due to societal stigma around mental illness and disability. The promotion of a link between autism and radicalisation is simply irresponsible.

The article goes on to suggest that autistic people might be being referred to Prevent for reasons relating to prejudice, bias and not understanding autism.

Now given the stuff going on with Mermaids, and just stumbling on this by chance whilst having a look into cults and neurodiversity, this has made me go 'huh? hang on a second thats strikingly similar in pattern'. If we can't talk about this, because it might create stigma, how can you go about protecting neurodiverse people if there really is an increased risk of radicalisation? (The use of 'no evidence' as an argument also misses the crucial point that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'.)

Or more to the point, is there a risk that the vulnerabilities of neurodiverse people puts them in a position where they could be exploited / could be susceptible?

I find the relectance to explore the subject - on the basis of fear of what it might show and how society might react to it - one which is notable. I can't think of many subjects where there is this real reticience to advance knowledge.

It feels like I'm standing on the edge of a potential massive rabbit hole of ideas which aren't particularly great, but I do maintain my thinking that I think there is a massive area where adequate research and understanding is missing.

We know that social media and its societial impacts are still really poorly understood. We know there are harms associated with echo chambers and social media algorythms which deliberately try to focus on interests that people have. We are talking in political terms about the harms of social contagion and self harm and certainly we've long had a recognition of this with suicide and media guidelines.

I am saying all this with a degree of personal concern (and indeed vested interest in this subject along several different lines for people I care a great deal about).

Going back to cults, one of the problems with the research into them, is it seems to be small scale research - though patterns seem fairly consistent. Thats problematic in terms of the quality of the research. And I'm really feeling somewhat out of my depth on this one and in danger of jumping to conclusions. I think its an area that needs better qualified minds than mine to look at for this reason.

BUT I do think there is something here, that needs greater exploration in a responsible manner. There seem to be reoccurring themes across a breadth of related subjects and issues.

Ancedotelly I've been online in social groups a very long time, and I've always found them uniquely narrow in their group think compared with the real world. In someways this is comforting and nice. But they also have a tendancy to create drama as a result and can explode into points of conflict that don't seem to happen in the same way as real life. They are MUCH MUCH more intense. (TBH, this is one reason I prefer MN because IME it doesn't tend to have this problem to the same degree). I've met a lot of people online and have some long standing relationships as a result but there is also this element of intimacy from online that isn't the same in relationships from day to day life. I'm now 26 years into online relationship and community experience. Thats significantly longer than average and I do feel like I've been there and got the tshirt to a large degree.

I dunno, like I say there is SOMETHING here, that I think merits PROPER investigation.

Britinme · 03/12/2022 14:36

@RedToothBrush 's post about US politics upthread is spot on. I live in the US - one of my children and three grandchildren live here, and two of my children and two grandchildren live in the UK, so I have a foot on both sides of the pond. I think there is more pushback to gender ideology here, as it's essentially a more conservative country, but it is entrenched among progressives.

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 14:44

@RedToothBrush and the only reason the age of the women joining cults isn't younger is because their parents, usually, won't let them. So they can't get into a cult until they are at leaving home age. But with this they are being handed to the cult with their parents blessing.

On a serious note I think you need a mental health tea break whilst you watch 10 minutes of cat videos on you tube. Researching this can not be good for your blood pressure!

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 14:45

Birdsweepsin · 03/12/2022 14:27

Love the dbs check bit at the bottom🙂

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 14:58

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 14:44

@RedToothBrush and the only reason the age of the women joining cults isn't younger is because their parents, usually, won't let them. So they can't get into a cult until they are at leaving home age. But with this they are being handed to the cult with their parents blessing.

On a serious note I think you need a mental health tea break whilst you watch 10 minutes of cat videos on you tube. Researching this can not be good for your blood pressure!

I'm actually feeling in a good place. I'm angry but also almost relieved too. It does look like its unravelling slowly but surely and I do feel it going to be increasingly hard for a reverse on this progress to be made.

It feels like things are crystallising more than they have. It makes a lot more sense than it did with a tangible explanation of how its got so out of control within reach. We aren't there yet, but I think its going the right direction.

I am thinking that I need to have a sit down conversation with my mother about a few things soon, both related to this and unrelated to this.

Even if things completely unravel as a movement, it doesn't for the individuals and families affected and thats very much in my mind about how do they cope without the structures that have led this.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 14:59

Boiledbeetle · 03/12/2022 14:44

@RedToothBrush and the only reason the age of the women joining cults isn't younger is because their parents, usually, won't let them. So they can't get into a cult until they are at leaving home age. But with this they are being handed to the cult with their parents blessing.

On a serious note I think you need a mental health tea break whilst you watch 10 minutes of cat videos on you tube. Researching this can not be good for your blood pressure!

I was thinking the same thing. Plus social media and 'awareness training' in schools means ideas are reaching kids earlier.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 03/12/2022 15:26

It's just like my mother's 1940s schooldays, except then huge numbers of late teen girls went into convents where they got their hair chopped off, wore sex-shrouding clothes and adopted new (often male) names. Luckily for them they didn't take drugs or get surgery, so if they wanted to leave, recovery was possible.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2022 16:19

cultinformation.org.uk/mobile/articles/cult-concerns-an-overview-of-cults-and-their-harmful-methods-in-the-uk/

It is also important to consider the categories of cults. There are two main headings under which CIC chooses to categorise all cults:

Religious Cults
Communal living common.
Members usually leave or do not join societys workforce.
Average age at the point of recruitment is in the low 20s.
Registered as religious groups.
Appear to offer association with a group interested in making the world a better place via political, spiritual or other means.

Therapy Cults
Communal living rare.
Members stay in societys workforce.
Average age at the point of recruitment is in the mid 30s.
Registered as not for profit groups.
Appear to offer association with a group giving courses in some kind of self improvement or self help technique or therapy.

FFS.

Want an irony claxon???

The CIC themselves were investigated by the charity commission a few years back. Want to know why???

They were reported by Scientology whose registration as a charity for they objected to (HELLO! PARALLELS!)

www.theguardian.com/voluntary-sector-network/2012/jan/13/charity-fall-foul-commission
The Cult Information Centre (CIC) was granted education charity status in 1992 but has recently run into difficulties with the commission after complaints were received in 2007 that it is in breach of the rules governing status. Specifically, it is alleged that the CIC isn't neutral concerning its educational work, which means it could be deemed to be a campaigning or political organisation. A commission spokeswoman explained: "The problem is that the CIC's education work seems to be coming from a pre-conceived standpoint whereas, when we granted charitable status, we specified that any educational work needs to be objective and factual. There has been ongoing correspondence, and the charity's trustees have offered to conduct a review into the charity's work and practices."

and

The commission suggests the CIC may have to "change its objects" which, in non-commission-speak, means it must maintain its status by using different qualifying criteria, ie, not claim to be an educational charity.

Which is kinda relevant given:

Mermaids description as on the charity commission's website:
Mermaids overarching aim is to create a world where gender diverse children and young people can be themselves and thrive; to this end, our goal is to relieve the mental and emotional stress of all those aged 19 years and under who are transgender, nonbinary and gender variant, as well as to promote education and awareness.

Now whats that clause about political causes and campaigning???

www.gov.uk/government/publications/what-makes-a-charity-cc4/what-makes-a-charity-cc4

Purposes that cannot be charitable purposes
Your organisation’s purpose cannot be a charitable purpose if it:
does not fall within the descriptions of purposes and is not for the public benefit, including if it is:
a political purpose – see Annex B: About political purposes
unlawful or against public policy
intended to serve a non-charitable purpose

So this is Annex B:
What makes a purpose ‘political’
In charity law, a ‘political purpose’ is not simply a purpose that is concerned with party politics.

When we use the term ‘political purpose’ we mean what charity law considers to be a ‘political purpose’. That means any purpose, whether in this country or overseas, that is aimed at:

furthering the interests of a particular political party
securing or opposing any change in the law, whether in the UK or overseas
securing or opposing a change in the policy or decisions of central government or local authorities or other public bodies, whether in the UK or overseas
Some organisations seeking to register as charities do not consider themselves to be ‘political’ organisations, but they may have a purpose which charity law considers ‘political’.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/what-makes-a-charity-cc4/what-makes-a-charity-cc4#annex-b

^mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/shaping-the-future-of-healthcare-why-reflecting-on-bell-v-tavistock-still-matters/^
Is this political campaigning in light of the CASS Review findings??

I give you this from the public benefit section:

Political purposes
54. Even if it appears to fall within section 3 (1) of the Charities Act 2011, a trust for political purpose is not regarded as being for the public benefit. In this context, trusts for political purposes include trusts of which a direct and principal purpose is either (i) to further the interests of a particular political party; or (ii) to procure changes in the laws of this country; or (iii) to procure changes in the laws of a foreign country; or (iv) to procure a reversal of government policy or of particular decisions of governmental authorities in this country; or (v) to procure a reversal of government policy or of particular decisions of governmental authorities in a foreign country.

Also I have queries about the 'public benefit clause'. Especially post CASS Review and Bell v Tavistock...

Public benefit not a static concept
31. The legal concept of charity, including the concept of public benefit in charity law, is not static. Charity law is not “frozen at some time in the past”11; “it must be remembered that the concept of what is and is not for the public benefit (as seen by society generally, and as reflected in judicial recognition of the views of society) changes over time. As we will see, changing social perceptions have, in the past, resulted in changes in what is seen as for the benefit of society and, accordingly, of what is properly to be accorded charitable status.”12 A purpose which was formerly recognised as being for the public benefit may cease to be recognised as such, and purposes which were not formerly recognised as being for the public benefit may be recognised as such. Thus in National Anti-vivisection Society v IRC13 Lord Simonds said:
“If to-day a testator made a bequest for the relief of the poor and required that it should be carried out in one way only and the court was satisfied by evidence that that way was injurious to the community, I should say that it was not a charitable gift, though three hundred years ago the court might upon different evidence or in the absence of any evidence have come to a different conclusion

I'm reading this, as charities needing to be aware of changes in law and the reports into our understanding of a subject and how it is handled and reflect this if they outline harms and issues that are contrary to the public benefit. Thus a trustee being ignorant of the Cass Review would be potentially be a massive no no.

And Mermaids now being in opposition to the recommendations of the CASS Review, also would seem to be a bit of a pickle as their position isn't to educate in line with that. If its lobbying to say the Bell v Tavistock judgement is wrong, thats a debateable position to be in.

Ironically the LGB Alliance in wanting to uphold the law as it stands and to uphold existing rights and as such I don't believe it falls foul of this political purpose cause in the same way!

And ahem... and how does this fit with referal to the Webberleys???

There is a reference in the section on public benefit to a court case National Anti-Vivisection Society v IRC23:
"It cannot be for the public benefit to favour trusts for objects contrary to the law. Again eleemosynary trusts may as economic ideas and conditions and ideas of social service change cease to be regarded as being for the benefit of the community, and trusts for the advancement of learning or education may fail to secure a place as charities, if it is seen that the learning or education is not of public value. The test of benefit to the community goes through the whole of Lord Macnaghten’s classification, though as regards the first three heads, it may be prima facie assumed unless the contrary appears.”

It also says elsewhere:

Charities carrying out purposes internationally
Legal requirement: a charity cannot have purposes that are illegal under the law of England and Wales.

The law of England and Wales is not universal and the laws of other countries will differ. This means some charities that are registered in England and Wales might have purposes that are not legally valid in another country.

The general position is that if a purpose would be charitable if it were carried out in England and Wales, it will also be considered charitable if a charity registered in England and Wales intends to carry out that purpose in other countries.

Similarly, if a purpose is considered to be of detriment or harm if carried out by a charity in England and Wales, it will also be considered to be of detriment or harm if it is to be carried out in other countries by a charity registered in England and Wales.

Noting this:
How benefit is established
46. For a purpose to be accepted as being beneficial to the public, the benefit must be identifiable and, in principle, be capable of being proved by evidence

and

Benefit and detriment
52. When deciding whether a purpose is beneficial to the public, the court will weigh any benefit which will result to the public from the pursuit of the purpose against any detriment.
“The court… has to balance the benefit and disadvantage in all cases where detriment is alleged and is supported by evidence. But great weight is to be given to a purpose which would, ordinarily, be charitable; before the alleged disadvantages can be given much weight, they need to be clearly demonstrated.

FUCKING HELL its a mess. The Charity's Commission have so many routes to take this down, I'd argue that the Charitys Commission are in danger of looking like they've neglected their role to let it get to this stage...

WarriorN · 03/12/2022 17:02

Sorry that looks like a nightmare link 😖