So, do women actually have the right to privacy and dignity?

[Blacklamp]

I’ve been watching the video clip of the Sturgeon / VAWG meeting, and it’s highlighted to me how little focus there has been on the right to privacy and dignity. For valid reasons, the main focus has been on women’s safety; however, I wonder if a result of this is that supporters of self-ID never have to address or justify their views on women’s privacy and dignity.

I think their responses might be a powerful eye-opener to the public, as it’s something almost all women and girls can relate to, perhaps unlike safety.

A focus on privacy and dignity also means that accusations of transphobia in relation to transwomen posing a risk to women, won't derail the focus of conversations about single-sex spaces.

Privacy and dignity are human rights that are continually promoted in the NHS and social care as fundamental to good practice. These rights also influence safeguarding policies.

I’d like to ask Sturgeon, and others . . .
Do women with a lifelong history of sexual violence perpetrated by males have the right to privacy and dignity in single-sex spaces, away from male bodies?

Does a 13-year girl have the right to privacy and dignity, away from male bodies, whilst changing her sanitary towel at school?

Do women without a history of trauma have the right to privacy and dignity, away from male bodies, in the changing area of a sports club, if that is important to them?

I’m guessing the response would be, ‘transwomen are also entitled to privacy and dignity' which of course is the case, but third spaces would fulfil that need. At least that would move the conversation on to the practicalities of third spaces rather than 'nothing to see here . . .'

The alternative response is that women don't have the right to privacy and dignity, away from male bodies. I want to hear them say it.

By the way, I don't want to minimise the efforts of some of the incredible feminists who have addressed the issue of privacy and dignity, but I can’t recall seeing or reading an interview in which supporters of self-ID have been forced to address this issue specifically, because the conversation is usually focussed on safety, and how vulnerable transwomen are.

Basically NS answer to that is 'there's no risk to anyone, what are you on about, stop being a bigot. Focus on the needs of TW they are the most important.'

Excellent question, OP.

MichelleScarn - yes, but it would be hard to respond in that way, as privacy and dignity aren't about safety, so she wouldn't be answering the question. At least that would be clear, and she could be pulled up on that.

And yes, she believes the needs of TW are most important, but I don't think she'd be able to actually say that, so what would she say, I wonder?

I'm guessing there'd be a big eye roll from NS at the suggestion, because here you are again, trying to drive a wedge between one group of women and another.

Because what you're really doing is defining 'women' as a sex class, something the right side of history people never want to do. Or else you're talking about 'c-s women' and any fule kno they are a privileged group so it would be like asking if men have a right to keep women out of the golf club.

Of course it's not remotely like that. The more we are held back from talking about women as a sex class the harder it becomes to raise these questions of privacy and dignity. And of course that's not accidental.

Incidentally, many men understand the concept of privacy and dignity when they find women filing past them at the urinals.

So sick of the narrative that this subset of men are somehow the most 'vulnerable' and fragile people who must be protected and pandered to by women at their own expense, whilst the teenage girls caught up in gender batshit who ARE likely to be very vulnerable and fragile are forgotten about and ignored.

Yes, great question. I'm tired of women having to demonstrate/explain their trauma to justify single sex spaces.

I wonder, as a thought experiment, what would happen if we let tw have the current women's loos and changing rooms. Then, leaving aside the cost and space implications, had third spaces for terfy women and girls to use. This is, of course, ignoring the men and boys who might also want privacy and dignity.

I don't want to get changed in front of any strange man, I don't care what his intentions are or how he sees himself. I don't care if he found the experience as embarrassing as i would. Feck, I wouldn't want to get changed in front of most men who are known to me.

I agree OP that opening women's spaces to men will definitely cause an increase in all the offences that females are subjected to by men. As it's endemic anyway I don't know if it would cause much of an uptick, an increase of 100 to 101 could be dismissed except by that 1 victim. If crimes are improperly recorded we might see a sudden increase of sexual assaults by 'women'.

I'm reminded of a thought I had during the height of #metoo. Stories of women carrying out normal day to day stuff, how they felt unsafe and the things they did to mitigate that. There were no stories from the women who didn't do those things at all; never went running, for solo walks, to the pub. How much more self exclusion will there be if previous safe spaces no longer are.

My only experience of a 'gender neutral' changing room, a swimming pool cubicles with gaps top and bottom, was that it was a voyeurs paradise.

Good question and yes we should

Look what happened to the girls at a school who wanted to do that @IcakethereforeIam am sure I remember they were still called bigoted and phobic for not agreeing to get changed in the original changing room!

IcakethereforeIam - I recall those same stories re #metoo, and they were very relatable (keys in fingers walking home at night, avoiding alleyways etc). Regardless of whether these behaviours are proportionate to the level of risk posed in that situation, this is how women feel.

I haven't experienced male violence in the way that some of my friends and the people I work with have, but I seem to have a hard-wired reaction to seeing a man in a women's space. A few weeks ago, I went into the girl's/women's toilet at a school, and there was a man there. It was perfectly innocent - he was with his little girl and thought the block was closed. He was embarrassed and apologetic. But immediately, my heart raced, and I stopped in my tracks and span around. I didn't want to be there.

Maybe I'm a prude, maybe I need to 'reframe' what I - as a middle-aged woman - know about male sexuality and behaviour. Or maybe a bit of kindness and understanding can be shown to women, and males should just stay out of women's spaces.

And as an aside, I have worked with many (older) transwomen. None of them thinks they are female. The fact they are male is the very core of their distress. They are also acutely aware of the fact they are likely to make women feel uncomfortable in single-sex spaces and so avoid using these wherever possible. It's certainly not the case that all transwomen are supportive of self-ID.

Do you change your sanitary towels in open spaces? Or in the privacy of a toilet cubicle?

Ivyonafence - a toilet cubicle, of course.

My 13-year-old daughter also changes her sanitary towels in a toilet cubicle, of course. She finds it rather embarrassing because of the rustling of the wrapping (all women will know what I mean). The other girls know what the rustling is, and, yes, it's a bit embarrassing. However, they all share the same bodily function, and this reduces the embarrassment. There is little, if any, teasing or sniggering because they all share the same bodily function.

The fact that all the girls menstruate affords a little dignity in this situation.

Males do not menstruate.

Ivonafence, do you have NO kindness in you for poor teenage girls, changing their tampon in a cubicle with a boy in the cubicle next door? And of course the merest rustle of the tampon paper will send the boy screaming to his mates about it. Oh how they will laugh.
Or taking out a tampon and a big blob like liver falling onto the floor, clothes or wherever, and having to clean up afterwards in the communal basins?

"what you're really doing is defining 'women' as a sex class"

"Women" IS and HAS ALWAYS BEEN a sex class. Women are adult female humans similar to how Cows are adult female cattle, Mares are adult female horses and Ewes are adult female sheep.

"something the right side of history people never want to do"

You tell those right-side people to get a dictionary and look up the word Woman and read the definition that says Adult human female. You should do the same before you come back on here to lecture us on a subject you clearly know little about.

Where I taught, there was a stand-alone Year 7 block that only had one toilet - a disabled one opening on to a foyer. The foyer was carpeted and had a low ceiling so you could here what was going on inside the toilet. So you only went in there if you really had to go and it was often girls caught short with period leaks. In fact I went in for exactly the same reason and a group of pupils tried the door handle then went silent. They then heard the crinkle of wrappers and started jeering. The group of boys got a huge shock when I came out and bellowed at them, telling them I knew exactly what they were doing. A year 7 girl overheard and thanked me afterwards.

Toilet cubicles usually have gaps top and bottom, I believe in America they can have gaps round the door. It's not unusual in this country for the locks to be broken and for there to be no toilet paper. It is unusual for a cubicle to contain handwash facilities. So, some privacy but the barest minimum.

That's without getting into using what is often an isolated room with only one entrance/exit.

Women and girls are nothing but support humans existing only to validate porn inspired feelings of womanhood inside the heads of men and boys.

If any woman thinks that by supporting this they will be afford special protection from the men/males they are wrong. They will he discarded as soon as the men and males are done with them and they stop being useful.

Of course we squid have privacy and dignity but its a competition now to see how far any if us are willing to go to gibe men and males whT they want.

Turkeys voting fir Xmas.

Men of course will keep their private spaces. Transmen can't join the masons after all. And gay saunas also kick out transmen.

One sided of course.

We've got neutral toilets for staff in the school I work at.

Off corridors, cubicle etc like a cupboard. Some are bigger than others.

Some are directly where children queue up - I hate those. I can see their feet through the grill. I don't feel that's dignified. It is 'private' I suppose but you could hold a conversation easily with someone outside.

Other loos have a good 2 meters between the door and the loo and the corridor is quieter. But are shared with males - which is fine but there's slight embarrassment sometimes when a man is waiting to use it.

Some women are peri and flooding a lot and leave their bags of sanitary products in the loos.

I miss the buffer of a larger room with the cubicles in.

In my experience, it's almost impossible for men to understand the degree of embarrassment and awkwardness associated with having periods for a lot of women, and certainly for girls.

There is no compassion and little attempt to understand what it might feel like.

@CoteDAzur · Today 11:06
You must have read my post in haste. We're not on opposite sides at all!
I have no desire to redefine 'woman'!

But I'm all too aware of the loud voices of TWAW No Debate and Be Kind, and the hair-trigger willingness of the so-called right side of history brigade to be violently offended. We need to know what their arguments are so we can counter them.

I agree that the arguments about dignity and privacy deserve more space, and my last paragraph was a suggestion that it is something that most men can relate to in the way they don't really 'get' the female instinctual alertness to male bodies and their potential violence.

@oldwomanwhoruns @Blacklamp

I've been menstruating for over 20 years, often in shared toilets and I've never been conscious of anyone else 'rustling' or even been aware of when they someone else was on their period unless they told me. I really think you're exaggerating the risks here.

I don't think the average teenage boy will be listening for rustling, or even knowing what it meant if they heard it.

There are valid arguments for same sex spaces, but this is silly.

No basically.

It's complete and utter shit but this is what very many TRA, Sturgeon, many TW, many many many bearded men and Owen Jones are telling us again and again every single day.

When are we going to listen to them?

Never?

I definitely won’t listen to them, and will guide dd with feminism

That’s great for you. You obviously are oblivious. I know it wasn’t ok for the Year 7 girls. It’s also not ok for lots of girls that are not using the toilets at school across the country because of mix sexed loos.

What about these arguments for single sexed (doors with gaps) toilets:

You’ll be oblivious to the fact that, on average, a pupil is raped every school day in a British school. These are the ones reported. As an ex-teacher I was aghast at this statistic and I couldn’t work out where these were taking place but I don’t think schools should be introducing fully enclosed, private mixed sexed toilets.

My Dd has catamenial epilepsy and the gaps under doors are necessary for her safety. Among with hundreds of thousands of others with epilepsy not controlled by medicines. And more with other conditions. Ironically for their safety, absolute privacy is second.
But mixed sexed toilets must have doors that go down to the floor - why is that? Is it because we can’t trust males? What could be the answer? I know - keeping toilets single sex.

Maybe I'm a prude, maybe I need to 'reframe' what I - as a middle-aged woman - know about male sexuality and behaviour. Or maybe a bit of kindness and understanding can be shown to women, and males should just stay out of women's spaces.

@Blacklamp Well they'll be plenty of people on the other side of this argument shouting you that yes you are a prude, and a bigot, and transphobe, and a homophobe, and a terf and a child abuser (have I missed any?) and yes you do need to do some serious 're-thinking '

Me on the other hand think you've got it right with the second one, men and men pretending to be women should stay out of women only spaces.