So, do women actually have the right to privacy and dignity?

[Blacklamp]

I’ve been watching the video clip of the Sturgeon / VAWG meeting, and it’s highlighted to me how little focus there has been on the right to privacy and dignity. For valid reasons, the main focus has been on women’s safety; however, I wonder if a result of this is that supporters of self-ID never have to address or justify their views on women’s privacy and dignity.

I think their responses might be a powerful eye-opener to the public, as it’s something almost all women and girls can relate to, perhaps unlike safety.

A focus on privacy and dignity also means that accusations of transphobia in relation to transwomen posing a risk to women, won't derail the focus of conversations about single-sex spaces.

Privacy and dignity are human rights that are continually promoted in the NHS and social care as fundamental to good practice. These rights also influence safeguarding policies.

I’d like to ask Sturgeon, and others . . .
Do women with a lifelong history of sexual violence perpetrated by males have the right to privacy and dignity in single-sex spaces, away from male bodies?

Does a 13-year girl have the right to privacy and dignity, away from male bodies, whilst changing her sanitary towel at school?

Do women without a history of trauma have the right to privacy and dignity, away from male bodies, in the changing area of a sports club, if that is important to them?

I’m guessing the response would be, ‘transwomen are also entitled to privacy and dignity' which of course is the case, but third spaces would fulfil that need. At least that would move the conversation on to the practicalities of third spaces rather than 'nothing to see here . . .'

The alternative response is that women don't have the right to privacy and dignity, away from male bodies. I want to hear them say it.

By the way, I don't want to minimise the efforts of some of the incredible feminists who have addressed the issue of privacy and dignity, but I can’t recall seeing or reading an interview in which supporters of self-ID have been forced to address this issue specifically, because the conversation is usually focussed on safety, and how vulnerable transwomen are.

Ever heard of a Mooncup? Ever tried one? They're great, but can be a bloody, quite literally, nightmare. You catch it wrong you end up with blood everywhere. And there's only so much some scrunched up toilet roll can do. What do you suggest they wash their hands in the toilet bowl? Rather than facing the boys at the sinks?

My DD was horrified at the thought of going to high school and having to share toilet facilities with boys.

That's nothing to do with me but how she, as a pre teen is coming to terms with her changing body.

I used to not go to the toilets in school because I found the smoking girls intimidating.

I would hate that she self excludes from toilets that are gender neutral but I think its a real possibility for many people.

That's before I even start on other places where you are more vulnerable.

This supposed 'inclusion' is excluding so so many peopme - but we are only female, we are bigoted- so why does it matter?

Ivyonafence - Never heard the rustling of sanitary products in 20 years of using women's toilets?!* Ok, well *fair enough, that's your experience.

My experience (and the experience of my daughters) is different. Of course, it's not the only reason, and it's certainly not the most important reason why single-sex spaces are important. But it is a reason that relates to privacy and dignity in relation to our female bodies.

Adolescents are often extremely self-conscious anyway, and most girls who have just started their periods feel painfully embarrassed and self-conscious when learning to manage their periods. This is normal. Are we not entitled to consider this?

@Abccde "I used to not go to the toilets in school because I found the smoking girls intimidating."

Arsehole me aged 10 - 15 apologises profusely.🍫may i offer chocolate as way of an apology?

Boiled.

Doesn't matter if it's audible or not, it's the perception that it might be. Just like women self exclude from lonely places not because they know they're going to be attacked but because they fear they might be. Anyway floor to ceiling partitions would not necessarily solve anything. In the cubicles I mentioned upthread the perverts had drilled small peep holes through every single one.

@Ivyonafence I've also just remembered there have been a few times when I've had to stand in the communal part of women's toilets in my pants with my trousers in hand trying to wash out the worst of some flooding damage and then stood there with them under the drier. No women had ever been anything but sympathetic.

What the fuck am I supposed to have done in those situations if the communal bit was occupied by a man?

20 years of menstruating you say? Come back in another 20 and then you might be a bit more understanding that not all people experience periods exactly the way you do.

But I'm all too aware of the loud voices of TWAW No Debate and Be Kind, and the hair-trigger willingness of the so-called right side of history brigade to be violently offended. We need to know what their arguments are so we can counter them.

Their argument, for everything is plain and simple. 'You are a bigot. Shut up.'

We really, really do not need to tie ourselves in knots trying to understand something that is nonsensical.

A toilet cubicle of course.

However, in saying that, I have had to change in a toilet cubicle with a pram laden with groceries jammed in the door. Numerous times.

I also have had to change flooding soaked sanitary products in toilets with no working locks. And with no toilet paper with which to wash my hands. Again, numerous times.

They don't quite qualify for 'open spaces' but not far from it.

And I also know that the local schools constantly have broken door locks.

I agree with you, the only response seems to be TWAW and if you don’t agree you’re a TERF bigot

Only if men allow it it seems OP.

And as an aside, I have worked with many (older) transwomen. None of them thinks they are female. The fact they are male is the very core of their distress
This seems very significant but I can't quite put into words why 😕

I think we should have a right to privacy and dignity but so many other women seem happy to give that away or minimise the importance of it for those of us who value it.

For me, its because they respect us and in turn we in the most part accepted them as much as we could and didn't complain about them sharing the ladies toilets for example.

There would never be a time when we were made uncomfortable in ladies changing rooms or hospital wards, and they wouldn't attend female only sessions etc.

Many of them 'passed' and the numbers were so few that it really wasn't an issue.

Due to the influence of Stonewall, that respect has gone, mainly in people who jave transitioned a lot more recently. They now do pose a real threat to females, especially since many of them are middle aged heterosexual males who have had no surgery and the numbers are increasing at a rapid rate.

The law has always been a bit grey, deliberately so but now it's been manipulated and abused and used in a way that was not forseen or intended.

Females are the losers mainly but so are these transsexuals who are being vilified.

Its horrible and Stonewall et al are to blame.

Am I reading this correctly? That in 20 years you have never heard any 'rustling'?

Do you only use toilets that have solid floor to ceiling walls and doors and only lots of space?

I cannot believe that I am reading this nonsense.

You seem to have been incredibly lucky or never use public toilets anywhere that the rest of us have to. Or.... do you have a device such is available in Japan that plays water flushing noises to cover any other noise you might hear in the toilet?

I used to be able to hear the men at my workplace tear toilet paper or flick the page on the newspaper they were reading if I was in the toilet against the shared wall. As well as all the other toilet noises they made.

And that was a corporate office in London. Obviously not a prestigious corporate office but still, a normal everyday corporate office that had the exact same layout on 8 floors.

And from reports from any teenage girl I know who now has to use a gender neutral toilet at school, also-fucking- lately boys are listening. And make comment. Why do you think so many of our girls are dehydrating themselves so they don't even have to urinate in a cubicle at school?

I am still pondering how any female can think oldwoman was exaggerating.

I read her 'liver like' description and immediately nodded.

Obviously this is similar to a poster on FWR who told us they didn't quite understand our posts because their periods were only ever light and short. They had no concept of the types of periods others had. Those like mine which would leave me shivering and in pain on school benches and that went on for 8 days with incredible clots in the first days.

They only got managable on the pill. Even now with peri-menopause I cannot leave the house for 2 days.

No ivyonafence women are not 'exaggerating' their experiences and hence their needs. These posts you are reading, they are our lives.

If you have lovely toilet experiences, fine. Go and use the mixed sex toilets but stop trying to tell other women that their needs don't matter because you have never experienced them.

yes Boiled.

After 40 years of menstruating and still going strong (after 10 years of peri-menopause when people tell me it is supposed to be over already!), I have to say that I cannot identify with the experiences of ivy at all. I wish that I could, because it sounds ideal really.

@Helleofabore still? Oh god you poor sod. My heart bleeds (!) for you.

After 40 years of hell I'm currently in the fingers crossed I make it to 12 months without a period, I got to 9 months thought yay and then bled for a month straight. I'm currently on 5 months. I'm going to be gutted if I have to start the clock again.

and in that 40 years I've experienced every period nightmare, and not just me, I've witnessed the troubles friends, family, work colleagues have had. BUT None of us had to put up with going through it with MEN in our toilets.

The thought of being a teenager now and sharing the toilets at school with the boys. No bloody way! It would have been a bloody nightmare.

Last week an advert/poster appeared on my twitter feed (I wish now I had screenshot it). It was from a charity highlighting the need for single sex toilets in India (I think) to help girls access education. It seems ridiculous that whilst charities see the need for this elsewhere in the UK sharing facilities is somehow seen as progressive (it’s not).

Good luck Boiled.

Right back at you Helle, may your Christmas present from Mother Nature be that 2023 is the year you become a menopausal woman. x

😁

Right back atcha!!!

I suspect I will be just like my sister and it will be a couple of more years.

But I do agree. During that time I have come across family, friends and work colleagues in all sorts of situations due to their periods and other life events involving blood, and other bodily functions. Including miscarriages.

Just a few years ago, international organisations such as UNESCO, Amnesty International and the WHO were campaigning for single sex provision for the privacy and dignity for girls and women.

This article is from 2018.

Unesco is urging governments around the world to prioritise providing single-sex toilets in schools

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/single-sex-toilets-unesco-un-international-womens-day-period-a8244776.html

“Single-sex toilets are desperately needed to overcome girls’ barriers to education.

In Bangladesh, 41 per cent of schoolgirls aged between 11 and 17 reported missing three days of school every month because of a lack of adequate sanitary care, according to the report.

Meanwhile, in rural areas of west African nations including Ethiopia, Kenya, Mozambique, Rwanda, Uganda and Zambia, less than a fifth of schools had four or more of Unesco’s five recommended menstrual hygiene services. These include separate sex toilets with doors and locks, water and rubbish bins."

UNICEF 2017

https://ideas4development.org/en/access-toilets-gender-equality/

Since 2010, access to drinking water and sanitation has been a human right recognized by the United Nations. Since 2015, it has also been one of the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) to be achieved by 2030, a goal which specifically mentions the special attention that must be given to women and girls in addressing this issue. Indeed, we often forget that access to toilets is a crucial issue for their health and dignity.

Its racism. The " foreign" men cant be trusted but western men are all virtuous and need validating for their virtuousness by being allowed to pee next to little girls.

We all know that where ever men and males live they pose the same risks to women amd girls.