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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hadley Freeman on Mermaids

30 replies

Axolotlquestions · 29/11/2022 10:26

Good article. I cannot wait to hear why they've ditched Susie Green.
unherd.com/2022/11/mermaids-useful-idiots/

OP posts:
nauticant · 29/11/2022 10:31

It's a good summary and was probably cathartic to write. But I don't like the misleading term "sex change", in fact I consider it to be so misleading as to be potentially harmful in terms of impossible expectations, and would prefer something more accurate such as "gender reassignment surgery".

Clymene · 29/11/2022 10:33

Yes agree nauticant. That leaped out at me too.

WinterLobelia · 29/11/2022 10:42

excellent article.

IcakethereforeIam · 29/11/2022 10:46

Yes, sex change is impossible in mammals. Perhaps genital plastic surgery would cut it?

Axolotlquestions · 29/11/2022 10:48

I wish we'd call it what it is: gender-motivated self harm.

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 29/11/2022 10:50

Great article.

I think 'sex change surgery' is inaccurate, but Hadley later in the article clarifies by way of referring to a journalist calling it "castration" and Jackie/Susie calling it "correcting a small defect" - which is quite a powerful way to construct the argument, imo.

MidsomerMurmurs · 29/11/2022 10:52

Not central to Hadley's argument, but "one full-time tweeter, part-time QC and occasional fox murderer" is a great line.

nettie434 · 29/11/2022 11:10

I think 'sex change' used to be the standard phrase, long before terms like 'gender affirmation surgery' became common. Ironically, I don't think anyone thought it meant a person had changed their biology at the time, just that they had had surgery. Sex change stuck in the public mind and I think it's partly the reason why so many people still assume most transgender people have had gender reassignment surgery.

That's just my personal take. I mainly wanted to post to say thanks for the link to this excellent article. That final sentence 'Because Green never once hid who she was' is especially powerful.

Anjelika · 29/11/2022 11:11

Thanks for the link. An excellent read indeed.

tresleches · 29/11/2022 11:42

Agree on "Green never once hid who she was"

This is the problem for the Guardian and any other TRA apologist - it's not clear how they are going to defend their position as more and more information enters the mainstream. It was always there for people to see if they wanted to, but people chose to ignore it. Now they look gullible at best and incompetent and irresponsible at worst. I expect a lot of awkward cognitive dissonance moving forward, rather than mea culpas.

Assigning Amelia Gentleman to Mermaids stories seems to be a way of throwing a critically-acclaimed journalist at the problem, perhaps hoping that Viner's wider editorial approach can escape scrutiny. Oh to be a fly on the Guardian's wall when these decisions were being made

NecessaryScene · 29/11/2022 11:49

I think 'sex change' used to be the standard phrase, long before terms like 'gender affirmation surgery' became common. Ironically, I don't think anyone thought it meant a person had changed their biology at the time, just that they had had surgery.

I remember it confused me as a child (young teen?). I read about a "sex change" somewhere and it threw me because it didn't make sense - being a very literal person I interpreted it literally, and it didn't seem to tally with what I knew of (a) biology and (b) 1980(s)? medical technology.

I was left that assuming there was something I didn't know about some sort of clownfish-style mechanism that could be triggered, as clearly we wouldn't be able to do it "manually".

Then I found out a bit later (I imagine I was still trying to figure it out) that they meant totally non-functional cosmetic surgery. And I recall being rather cross at being misled.

guinnessguzzler · 29/11/2022 11:54

Hadley getting it right again. Good woman.

LizzieSiddal · 29/11/2022 12:07

@NecessaryScene I remember it confused me as a child (young teen?).

Me too! I remember being so confused watching the documentary A Change Of Sex about Julia Grant, as a teenager. I had huge empathy for Julia but was always thinking, you cannot change sex, he is not a woman.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 29/11/2022 12:35

Great article and thanks for the link! This is one of the things that has made me so very angry over the last couple of years - Susie Green was totally open about who she was, what she did, why she did it, and she and everyone around her managed to spin it as brave defiance of social norms for her child's sake. And so many people who should have known better just nodded along.

But the story I've occasionally seen putting all the blame on her and saying that Mermaids was just a harmless support organisation until she came along doesn't ring true to me, because that's not how I remember Mermaids from the 1990s. Admittedly they were so fringe I didn't pay them a lot of attention but they weren't an organisation we'd list in my feminist and women's group's resources. They may have had a wider range of voice at the time but she wasn't alone, she was only the most extreme.

So I don't need to know why Mermaids ditched her. There are so many good reasons, take your pick. And as for why they kept her so long, well given how much respectability success and influence Mermaids managed to wield under her leadership and how afraid everyone else was to call out abuse, why wouldn't they keep her as long as possible?

nauticant · 29/11/2022 12:36

One of the reasons I don't like the term "sex change" is because it is also directed at children having gender confusion who will then believe that being medicalised will result in them changing their sex at some point in the future. This belief that they're going to be a different sex when they're an adult will become a fundamental part of their identity. That is harmful.

nettie434 · 29/11/2022 13:41

Interesting to read the comments about 'sex change'. As a child reading about people like Jan Morris, I always interpreted it as a procedure to make you 'look like' the sex you wanted to be. Now of course, things are very different when gender is framed as your inner sense of self.

I did emphasise it was my personal take on 'sex change' and now reading other people's reaction to the term, I can see that it isn't particularly clear. I do think this is problematic, which is why the contribution of people like Keira Bell in spelling out what medical transition involves is incalculable. A further barrier is that all types of aesthetic surgery, such as bottom implants, are almost invariably presented as risk free. This is then used by those supporting medical transition for children as something that is similarly safe.

Clymene · 29/11/2022 14:51

nauticant · 29/11/2022 12:36

One of the reasons I don't like the term "sex change" is because it is also directed at children having gender confusion who will then believe that being medicalised will result in them changing their sex at some point in the future. This belief that they're going to be a different sex when they're an adult will become a fundamental part of their identity. That is harmful.

This is a very good point.

I also think we need to be very clear about language because I only realised relatively recently that SRS - sex reassignment surgery - for transwomen does not typically involve any kind of surgery on the genitals but instead refers to surgery to the face, Adam's apple shaving, hair transplants, shoulder reduction surgery etc.

IcakethereforeIam · 29/11/2022 15:43

Well @Clymene you've taught me something today. Not sure how I feel about learning it!

InvisibleDragon · 29/11/2022 15:58

It's a good article.

If I was Hadley Freeman I would also be spitting tacks quite annoyed that after repeatedly pitching this story across multiple desks, that it is handed on a plate to another journalist as soon as I left.

guinnessguzzler · 29/11/2022 16:02

To be fair, I think there's probably quite a long list of things Hadley has to feel aggrieved about at the Guardian.

WolverineBlueyy · 29/11/2022 16:27

Lucy Mangan on Twitter congratulating Hadley for a "brilliant piece". Interesting. Not sure if she's waded in before?

xxyzz · 29/11/2022 17:59

WolverineBlueyy · 29/11/2022 16:27

Lucy Mangan on Twitter congratulating Hadley for a "brilliant piece". Interesting. Not sure if she's waded in before?

Ooh, interesting!

IsItaCowIsItaPlane · 29/11/2022 18:16

Great article thanks OP. As an aside, does anyone know when the judgement in the Charity Commission case is expected

ChampagneCommunist · 29/11/2022 19:04

IsItaCowIsItaPlane · 29/11/2022 18:16

Great article thanks OP. As an aside, does anyone know when the judgement in the Charity Commission case is expected

Any minute now

DisappearingGirl · 29/11/2022 20:38

Online obsessives — such as one full-time tweeter, part-time QC and occasional fox murderer

😂