Most women want women-only, female-sex only, facilities. Please tell me why women do not...

[CloudsAndLightDrizzle]

Most women need spaces free of males for, e,g, hospital wards, prisons, rape counselling, social groups. No male prisoners in women's prisons. I would think that's an obvious one, but no. Currently, if male offenders say that they are women, then they are waved into the women's prison estate. Questions have been asked, but apparently, male rapists' feels that they are "women" will always overridden actual women's rights.

Why are women's voices and women's preferences for single-sex women's spaces, and for child safeguarding, so fiercely opposed?;

My partner has quite a big family and over the past few years 4 (3 female and 1 male) have gone to Uni. Each spent their first year in mixed sex accommodation (student flats) which I think is the norm. However with the exception of 1 who moved in with her boyfriend all the others then moved in to shared student houses with people of their own sex for the remainder of their course. I don’t think it’s as simple as saying it’s a generational thing.

@Thelnebriati often simply to be able to tell women they are being unreasonable, hysterical, man hating, etc.

A bit like the "You all have a mixed sex loo in your home" one. Utterly nonsensical but makes 'them' feel they have a point to make!

The toilet issue is thrown out there to make women look petty and stupid and like we're only saying we need these spaces to hurt males who have decided they can't use the toilets designated for their sex.

But here's the thing: yes we had a mixed sex toilet at home, but I didn't have safe or easy access to it, my father made sure of that. It was his bathroom and we used it on his terms. He regularly left the toilet unflushed and dirty, spat phlegm in the sink and left it, would decide 5 minutes after you got in the bath that he needed the toilet and would then lock himself in there until the water went cold (and if you got dressed he would hit the roof, which meant shivering in a towel until he decided to come out and then getting into the cold water). Oh, and he used to wipe his armpits with the hand towel and then fold it neatly and put it back on the rail so you'd go to dry your face on it and it would stink.

Public toilets were one of the few places I knew there wouldn't be any men and I could use them on my terms. It's getting a bit difficult now. Urinary leash, anyone?

God, cake, that sounds horrible. I'm so sorry you went through that.

Why are women's voices and women's preferences for single-sex women's spaces, and for child safeguarding, so fiercely opposed?

Partly toilets are dismissed through lack of understanding of what happens in female toilets.

From an early age my mum would have us use public toilets to get changed in when we were going somewhere after school due to time constraints. A mum dealing with three kids... well we didn't all fit in a cubicle so we were changed in the main area where there would only ever be women.

After periods started, I used to often be rinsing out clothing bits. After breastfeeding or just baby sick, I was often rinsing out clothing bits and using the dryer. Or exploding breastmilk saturating my tops.

I have had friends miscarry in public toilets and needed assistance from other women. NOT MALES.

I have spent many months with a pram laden with shopping because I walked everywhere jammed in the door while I entertained a baby who was prone to screaming, while dealing with flooding periods.

I have had to do similar with my own elderly mother when there was no disabled loo and had to clean her up.

Toilets are not used for 'just peeing' as so many males who are heavily invested in gaining access to those toilets tell us. They want those toilets to be only about 'peeing' so they can convince people who have never had to use a toilet for anything else that women are hateful.

Had a very similar experience to powershower when slept in the same bed as a male acquaintance when all staying over after a party at uni. He felt me up, and I pretended to be asleep.

I can understand their naïveté. Not so much, yours.

This.

I think the question that should be asked to those who don't think there is any problem with allowing trans identified men into women's spaces is if they would be happy if we got rid of all sex segregated spaces.
So no more women's and men's toilets or changing rooms just a single mixed sex toilet or changing room. No right to ever request a same sex person for intimate medical examinations or strip searches.
Would those people really be happy with their teenage daughters getting undressed in a room full of teenage boys for swimming or sharing bedrooms with boys or male teachers on school trips

There are lots of women online and elsewhere saying that they don't mind sharing all of their spaces and giving single-sex women's spaces away on behalf of all women, including the ones who actually do care about losing single-sex spaces.

These opinions are amplified by activists for obvious reasons, and then over recent years, women have been vilified (first by activists, and then by other women who feel compelled to 'be kind' at all costs) for uttering anything other than the socially-acceptable "biology doesn't matter", to the point where social groups, corporates, the public sector, etc are all self-policing pupils, employees and service-users to parrot the same, with very real consequences for stepping out of line.

The generally accepted view nowadays seems to be that anyone who wants retain actual single-sex spaces is a horrid bigot, and so even if the majority of people do think that biology matters and single-sex spaces are necessary in some contexts, most have learned the hard way that it's not ok to say this publicly if you want to keep your career, friends, platform, etc.

Some rich, privileged young women are so narrow minded and selfish that they don't give a fuck about other women who are forced to share a homeless shelter, prison cell or rape crisis group with a man.

Or anything about the lives of women from some traditional religions who need women’s safe spaces ( like toilets and changing rooms ) to be allowed to exist in public life . Or women who need female health care staff to acesss health care.

Its all about then and their stuck up mates sharing a bunk on their Duke of Edinburgh expedition or sodding gap year trip.

If my teenage / adult children were so stupid I would be taking the time to educate them and ask them to consider their own privilege . Id not be bragging about their stupidly and selfishness and my inadequate parenting on MN.

Otoh ... I think the question that should be asked to those who don't think there is any problem with allowing males into women's spaces is why they evidently don't give a shit about the women for whom it does matter.

It might not worry me, but that's irrelevant - I know it does matter to other women. Sure, many students don't mind mixed sex accommodation - but some young women will self exclude, or be prevented from attending uni if they can't get all-female accommodation. Rape victims, prisoners, sports... how the heck can any women just dismiss the needs of other women?

Young women impacted by male bodied women on thei single sex sports teams (or rather in our direct experience on the opposing team) are not fine with it. Tbh neither are they fine with female bodied opponents who are taking testosterone to transition remaining on that women's team which they are expected to play against without mentioning that the emperor is wearing two sets of unfairly advantaged new clothes simultaneously.

I've shared a room with a trans woman. She went through hell to transition in the military years ago. Whilst there could be a few men that try their luck with the likes of prisons, how can you deny genuine trans people? What about female to male trans, do you deny those too? I don't understand the twisted hatred to all trans on this site when most of you have never probably met a trans person. Yes you shouldn't just be able to say you're trans when you fancy, there should be checks and balances and thorough assessments, but completely denying genuine trans people is fucked up

So at @endlesscraziness maybe you can solve the problem, how do we tell the difference between a male with a trans identity who is a ‘genuine transwoman’ and a male pretending to have a trans identity to access womens spaces?

Do you think transitioned males should have access to female single sex spaces?

Not quite sure what it is you are trying to say on this thread.

By the way, why do you assume posters have not ‘met a trans people’? How prejudiced are you to make this statement?

I shared a room with a trans woman and never felt uncomfortable or threatened, so I have no issues. She went through huge amount of trauma and abuse to transition in the military and I just don't understand the hatred directed or expectation that all trans are pretending to access female spaces.

So again, how do we tell the difference? What are the absolute signs a male is a ‘ genuine transwoman’?

Sorry to ask again.

Do you or don’t you believe that males should access female single sex spaces?

I know several men who have gone through hell: abuse, mental health, death of a child (often considered the worst hell on earth if we choose to rank), cancer...yet none of them would feel the need to transgress boundaries of women nor feel the need to ignore women who said, "I'm not comfortable with this."

What makes transwomen different from the examples of men who have gone through hell of another sort?

Full psychological assessments? She was fully transitioned, I'm willing to bet anyone 'faking' being trans isn't going to chop off their penis. I never had a single issue with her at all and we shared a room for 6 months. However I did work with a trans male that was crude, vulgar and made me feel threatened but by your logic he was female so can access female spaces, right?

So are we supposed to demand to see a males penis to determine if they can access womens spaces? That’ll go well. So why exactly do you believe all spaces should be mixed sex?

Well, I am hoping that endlesscraziness clarifies their position. Because they seem to think they shared a room with a male, that posters on this thread should agree with something or other.

I am going to own up and say that I fucking hate mixed sex toilets. Even if there is a damn sink inside the cubicle. I hate the fact that there is inevitably urine sprayed all over the seat (yes, some women hover and cause a spray in the women’s loos, but it is just not comparable, the likelihood). I feel uncomfortable- I look around for hidden cameras or mobile phones set up - I even do it in single sex loos, since blokes feel entitled to walk into those too now.

I don’t care if men are gay, if they think they are women, if their female friends and relatives think they are ‘harmless’ I hate sharing the loos with them. All of them.

I always feel uncomfortable leaving my sanitary towels in the bin with my menstrual blood. It is an animal thing - I feel 100 times worse doing it in a mixed sex toilet.

I hate opening the door and seeing a bloke I don’t know on the other side.

That awkward feeling as I do a micro-risk assessment.

Mixed sex toilets make me feel uncomfortable and powerless, because I am unable to assert boundaries against the opposite sex.

I know there are a lot of women who don’t feel bothered and assume that it is a lesser thing, but I don’t. I don’t want to share with men and it is important to me.

I shared a room with a trans woman and never felt uncomfortable or threatened, so I have no issues. She went through huge amount of trauma and abuse to transition in the military and I just don't understand the hatred directed or expectation that all trans are pretending to access female spaces.

I've shared changing rooms, toilets etc with trans friends and felt perfectly safe with my friends. But it didn't change my mind on whether certain spaces (including loos and changing rooms, IMO) should be segregated by biological sex to protect biological females (whether they feel like they need that protection or not).

It's not about whether "trans people are fine once you take the time to get to know them" - it's that opening up a single-sex space to self-identifying trans people of any biological sex effectively opens it up to everyone.

It's not just physical spaces and physical safety. Women are socialised to speak less then men, to placate rather than assert, to couch what we say in softness that gets in the way of our meaning.

We need spaces without males taking more than their fair share of our attention so we can converse and find ourselves.