Ah, so Benjamin Boyce is just an old school MRA

[Itsallgravee]

Shame, he's had some good female guests on his show before and now it turns out he was just humouring them.

twitter.com/BenjaminABoyce/status/1597097598233772036?s=20&t=hzu04J9L8fUw4vcH7qmPFA

women are responsible for the actions of others?

gosh, that’s a new one

He's always been a bit dodgy. He's had some great guests though, if you can get past it they are worth watching.

^ This

It's his view; it's up to those who disagree to illustrate why he's wrong.

He's wrong (I don't have time to pull it apart right now!)

He's also providing voices to many with whom I agree.

Iirc he had heated discussions with Clare Jane Jones on this, and I think someone else

Is not the point is that women should be asking to be treated like people?

There is a strand of denying that men and women are different to justify that outcome. "Treat us like people because we're not different from men". Bad argument. (Much like "don't discriminate against gay people because homosexuality is natural" is a bad argument).

I also think it's because he's over there and feminism has different roots to over here - sadly he's not really listened to the brilliant interview he did with Julie Bindel

Is not the point is that women should be asking to be treated like people?

this!

when he says ‘men’, he means ‘people’

if you read it that way, it makes so much more sense in terms of honesty about his view point

Ah I see, women can only be treated as equals if men treat them like men.
FFS that is a seriously stupid take. I remember his interview with JCJ, he's never liked intelligent women who show him up.

this! when he says ‘men’, he means ‘people’

So "not this!" You're interpreting it totally differently to me, and you seem to have missed what I was saying too.

In fact, I'm not even sure what your "makes more sense" reading is. Explain?

Benjamin Boyce admits he supports gender stereotypes.

Ah, I would interpret his comment as having little self insight

you think he supports feminism and his comment is tongue in cheek?

I feel like I'm interrupting some sort of mass "so what you're saying is" session where everyone just thinks up something horrible for a horrible person to think so they can accuse them of being horrible.

If you like doing that, you should check out an have a go at those TERF people - they're really horrible.

I feel you may be having a bad morning @NecessaryScene

I've always thought he was sexist , quite genuinely so, so difficult to hide, however much he tries.

And it's just a soundbite that he thinks sounds clever.

Anyone interested in this issue automatically translates it in their head, as 'women who want equality' followed by 'men who want to fetishise them'.

Or are you related to Benjamin Boyce in a way that is making you take offence on his behalf?

I think he's always struggled with feminism. I've seen him get very bristly with a number of women. As does Bret Weinstein, who was one of his teachers at Evergreen. Like Jordan Peterson, at times I see them trying to see things from a female perspective, but they don't actually get it. Women are still other to them.

you think he supports feminism and his comment is tongue in cheek?

Whereas you think he opposes feminism and thinks women shouldn't be treated as people? Seriously?

For starters, he's clearly baiting people who want to do a "so what you're saying is" here, just to see what they come up with.

You didn't answer the question though - if you think he means "women who wanted to be treated like people paved the way for men who wanted to be treated like women", what's the logical flow through there?

I've already given my interpretation above. Feel free to respond, anyone. Does it not make sense? His wording was quite precise, and that fits, whereas he left often lots of scope for offense-taking misinterpretation.

He's clearly playing a game, which you can certainly object to as being annoying, but you don't have to play.

I think he thinks they're biologically linked. He doesn't quite get it.

Gosh how I love playing ‘guess what the obscure man means’ while another man gets irate with me

if you think he means "women who wanted to be treated like people paved the way for men who wanted to be treated like women", what's the logical flow through there

you seriously haven’t come across the ‘feminists brought it all on themselves’ trope?

I'm wondering if:

a) he is just enjoying a shit stir
b) he is genuinely seeking good arguments to help him work through what is a sticking point for him
c) he does have a blind spot (I've noticed he often brings up this argument in his conversations- particular noticeable with Helen Brunskell Evans iirc)- almost like a point he just can't get past.

Interestingly, it's a similar things that happens with my DH in discussions around gender stuff.

It could be around confusing/simplifying/monlithing feminism.

It makes me curious, as like others have said, he is a great interviewer and host, a deep and critical thinker. But it does hit on something I've been aware of in some of his interviews.

We do all have blind spots and biases- even the most open minded.

The current era is highlighting that's definitely something everyone is struggling to come to terms with, I think. Maybe because we are all so so exposed to everyone's else's minds.

Anyway, best response for me so far is from Sal Grover:

"Women wanted to be treated like equal members of society, with voices & choices. It’s only “treated like men” because (most) men always had those things. Men who want to be “treated like women” mostly interpret womanhood through the lens of porn.

There’s no similarity."

For added context to my comment, I'm a bit of an outsider, as only recently coming to learn about feminism through exploring the gender/trans debate. So I've got quite 'clear eyes' on it maybe? (In what has struck me in his responses to feminists in interviews and in that I don't have many pre conceptions)

2nd wave feminists were campaigning to be treated as people, as equal members of society, and not like lowly women. BernardBlacksMolluscs has it absolutely right.

This trope that feminists wanted to be "treated like men" when they earned the right for women to access education, work in medicine and academia (which was forbidden until late 18th century). When they earned the right to access sports, which was impossible until feminists invented women's sports, or vote, become an MP or politician, all of which were not possible for women until feminism.

The idea this means women wanted to be "treated like men" is so fucking sexist it's beyond belief.

As a women I've never wanted to be treated as a man. I've just not wanted to be treated worse than a man or seen as less than a man because I'm a woman.

I agree Maud.

He has put the idea that we have the issue of TRAs and incels because "feminism went too far" - which to me means he doesn't understand feminism and/ or doesn't recognise the difference between real feminism and the way mainstream media creates a feminism lite/ girl power and twists the whole point of what feminism actually means.

Also he may be mistaking Liberal feminism for feminism.