Ah, so Benjamin Boyce is just an old school MRA

[Itsallgravee]

Shame, he's had some good female guests on his show before and now it turns out he was just humouring them.

twitter.com/BenjaminABoyce/status/1597097598233772036?s=20&t=hzu04J9L8fUw4vcH7qmPFA

Personally I think BB is a great interviewer. But he is just a normal bloke with some odd opinions about women. I mean how do you even treat a woman like a man? It's just such an odd take. Sometimes I think he says idiotic things on purpose to distance himself from being perceived to be an "ally" to certain groups.

I find a helpful rule of thumb is, if a person is saying that something is the fault of women in general, what they’re saying is gonna be sexist

Yes Warrior, that articulates succinctly what strikes me.

It seems to me, that men; unless they've really done a deep exploration into feminism (and maybe in some cases even if they have), can possibly only have an outside or intellectual perspective on it; as a holistic and ancestral movement. they are always going to be one step removed from it.
I'm not an academic, but I think this is probably is what 'lived experience' is about.
For me personally, only recently discovering feminism in all its rich history was a revelation- because I suddenly saw it as such an important part of my being; that being in the class of woman was a hitherto unrecognised piece of the puzzle.

I want to say more about there being one value in coming to this later in life; through experience first, and theory later. But I can't articulate that right now.

It’s a misrepresentation of feminism, though, isn’t it?

not least because much early feminism was based on the argument that public life would improve with the influence of women and their so-called ‘feminine’ qualities. It was an insult thrown at women who sought emancipation that they were ‘manly’. Early feminism also sought better maternity and antenatal care and family allowances because of high levels of infant and maternal mortality and to ensure women had a dedicated income for their children.
Even once we get to the second wave, we are talking about refuges, rape crisis centres, birth control and abortion, playgroups as much as decent working conditions and equal pay (and note some equal pay claims are still being dealt with now). In other words, issues affecting women because they are women!

Plus, there is nothing innately ‘male’ about access to education, employment and equal pay - these are just human rights.

Absolutely.

Having said that, he's had plenty of opportunities to engage with feminists and get his head around it!

Yes, "walk a mile in my shoes," Maude. My Dh has sometimes been a bit ott reactionary to certain feminist opinions; I think they're so used to the status quo that discourse around basic true equality gets interpreted as rocking their status quo.

Bb is a similar age to me and I'll admit I grew up believing that feminism wasn't need any more and men and women had equal rights. I'd normalised many things. As I'm sure he has.

The Men who want to be treated like women he's referring to have always been there in different guises. It's just another way to control the status quo. Plus it's mostly porn related, and porn is now much easier to access in their pockets.

At the end of the day, he does give a platform to many who aren't given that platform at all. I listen more to the people he interviews than his views.

It's an ignorant statement.

If he truly believes it, he's sexist and arrogant.

And assuming when he says ‘men who want to be treated as women’ he means men who enjoy role playing sexist stereotypes of women, those people have never actually wanted to really be treated as women

so both end of his statement are flawed

however I don’t think he should be cancelled, ignored or burned at the stake for saying something silly.

possibly just the mandatory 100 hours of studying A Vindication Of The Rights Of Woman

you seriously haven’t come across the ‘feminists brought it all on themselves’ trope?

Absolutely. And when it isn't just dumb trolling, it seem to be the result of the same basic confusion - men thinking that "treating women as people" is synonymous with "treating women like men". And if you don't think women are people, then sure, that is synonymous.

You can assume that Boyce is simply treating them as synonymous himself, in which case the statement is dumb, and not even worth responding to (beyond to say he's dumb).

Or you can assume he's not treating them as synonymous. In which case there might be a more interesting discussion to be had about whether women ended up settling or having to settle for "like men" specifically rather than "as people".

I go with the latter because it's more interesting, and I don't think he's dumb. Trolly, but not dumb.

For example, during the battle for women's rights, what was achieved was simply "treating like men". There wasn't that much restructuring of economies to better serve those bear children rather than merely sire them. Was simply removing the male/female distinction in laws for people sufficient, given that society and the economy were structured for "people" who were all men, not two distinct sexes.

And the gender/queer studies nonsense was very much about trying to blur male/female lines, possibly in part due to the underlying logic: "if women are now people, maybe men and women are the same thing, cos you can't possibly have two distinct groups with equal rights..."

This is the sort of thing JCJ, mentioned above, covers a lot - one example here, but I'm pretty sure there's something even more to-the-point I've failed to find, about people being unable to conceive differences that aren't binaries and hierarchies.

As she writes in the piece above:

Given that we’re all raised inside the patriarchal imagination, it is pretty easy to see why girls and young women decide they rather fancy the ‘human-box,’ and then further conclude that the way to do this is to renounce their femaleness.

That very much is a real dynamic, and the fact that so many women are prepared to think along those lines is a barrier to female solidarity. So there is a real point and issue there under the trolly tweet. JCJ does it a lot better though.

I don't think he's ever hidden the fact that he's opposed to feminism, or certain ideas within feminism?
I also get the impression he likes to post provocative statements to get a reaction?

I've never really watched many of his videos to be honest. Discovered him and the Triggernometry guys around the same time and preferred their format.

What does he mean by being treated like a man? And being treated like a woman? It's ambiguous and can be understood in different ways depending on how you view the statement. Does he clarify what he means or is he just enjoying the reactions?

For example, during the battle for women's rights, what was achieved was simply "treating like men". There wasn't that much restructuring of economies to better serve those bear children rather than merely sire them

and this makes aggressive trans activism the fault of women or a subset there of?

for serious?

come on now, you can admit it. It was a fucking stupid thing to say and reveals deeply ingrained sexism

At the end of the day, he does give a platform to many who aren't given that platform at all. I listen more to the people he interviews than his views.

But how much is he just using all this to boost his own profile?

Pound to a penny he'll drop them all like hot bricks when all this is over and plough on with a general sexist/misogynist grift.

No idea who he is, but he doesn't sound very bright.

Being treated like a man or woman is NOT the same thing as pretending that you are someone of the opposite sex.

Also women wanted equality, NOT to be treated like men. The vast majority certainly didn't want to be men, so how is this relevant?

Like I say, not very bright.

There’s so much sexist bollocks out there from every angle, BBC website has Cara Delevingne dressing in different ways and feeling a “he” or a “she” - even my children agree with me now when I ask them what part of that isn’t just massive sexism. DD1 has taken herself of social media, thank fuck.

Maybe he will - seems to be more interested in interviewing however.

He does like to provoke via Twitter and observe the fall out.

<snort>

Nice

Pudgy edgelords should be setting a better example to young men. I’m definitely going to use that one again

It's a stupid tweet and he probably thought he was being clever and edgy. Definite cringe for Benjy.

But he's not an MRA. He's not a feminist. But also not an MRA.

I think he does kind of blame feminists for some of the mess that we're currently in, and I think he has a point but obviously it's way more complex and nuanced than what he's putting across here.

I get the impression that he says things like this to provoke a reaction. I also think he has had quite a few run-ins with feminists in the past and has felt quite hard done by them, so things like this are a bit of a trolling expedition for him, see what he can shake out.

He's annoying, yes. But he's also been very good at giving a platform to women, including feminists, on his channel and even when he disagrees, he's reasonably fair in giving his interviewees a voice.

That seems a pretty fair and realistic reading of it to me Beastly.

I'd like to think that's what it's all about as I really rate his channel!

I’ll bite.

I am a feminist and believe that women are equal to men. I also believe that we are not the same - i.e. there are some innate differences both physically and behaviourally. This leads to men being more aggressive and also more interested in engineering than the average woman. It does not mean that women should not do engineering (i am in a male dominated profession) but that 50/50 targets are not always appropriate.

Some parts of lib feminism state that women and men are the same, differing only by genitalia. So any difference in subjects studied is due to discrimination, not choices. Also women have the same sex drive etc as men, so what difference does it make to share intimate spaces with trans women? Why are people so obsessed with genitalia etc?

I think this is rubbish but by saying that biology sex doesn’t matter at all for life choices, the end result is trans ideology. If biology is unimportant, why can’t males be women?

Yes. I can see that and have heard that argument. (I am new to this and it is bloody complex and confusing), but then it comes back to the seeing feminism as if it's a monolith thing then doesn't it? Benjamin strikes me as capable of, and reveres nuance and complexity. So it seems a very simplistic comment for him to make?

I read it that he was provoking discussion (and it worked). I imagine he spends so much time on the trans debate he wants to have a pivot now and then to talk about something else. Helen Dale (not a feminist) said something interesting on Heterodorx a few weeks ago - that women wanting access traditional mens spaces to women (eg golf clubs, gentleman’s clubs) opened up the question of whether women should have their own spaces (and that they should) and this latest intrusion was sort of a natural next step in the equality debate.

That was always one of the old tropes against feminism - 'they want to be like men'. I saw it all over the place, in tabloid newspapers, from my MiL .. everywhere. No, we just wanted a bite of the cherry, a fair crack of the whip. Because men were (are) the ones with the power. And they are so very bad at relinquishing even one little bit of that power.

'A woman who wants to be like a man is lacking in ambition'

I wouldn't call BB a MRA, he just thinks feminism is extreme and not based on biological/evolutionary reality, a view I completely reject. I still find his interviews interesting including when his feathers are ruffled.

Flamn, I think that's how BB may see it (unless he's being devil's advocate, which is entirely possible.)

The problem is that what you've described is very much what many women and men believe to be what feminists fought for.

Pudgy edgelord quote is pertinent in pointing out how yet again, women are blamed/ expected to do the heavy lifting while the men put their feet up. Men have responsibilities.

I was re watching / continuing one of his recent films with a young female detransitioner who described sexual abuse and ptsd in her childhood; i think there's no way he truly believes that post. He knows the impact of porn, abuse, trauma, and how much money is being made out of vulnerable children.

He does blame butler in one tweet. But she's not a feminist.

And there will be individuals who believe what he's written. beastlyslumber's post is accurate imo.

Some women here have argued that "women's liberation" is a better description than feminism as the latter conjures up that idea of being equal.