What happened to my gay friend?

[waterwitch]

Through school I was aware of a boy at a neighbouring school. He was clever, loud, vivacious, and very proudly gay, the ‘life and soul’, everyone loved him - boys, girls, teachers & parents. I got to know him a bit better in 6th form, when we did charity work together. He was kind and funny and really energetic. I really admired him.

Several years later…
Last week I ran into them again (new pronouns) and we had coffee. They are half the size they used to be, all wide staring eyes and nervous gestures. Their only topic of conversation was trans rights. They identify as non-binary, or maybe a transwoman, because of feelings they’ve had ‘since they were a tiny child’.

They are distraught about the treatment of transwomen by men, and determined that the way to address this is for transwomen to be fully accepted as women (by women - no suggestion that men’s behaviour should change, more a suggestion that abuse by men confirms they are real women 😱). Mention of providing safety via a third space brings a venomous attack on women for not accepting TWAW. Any suggestion that predatory men may pretend to be trans to access women’s spaces was brushed aside because they argue anyone who says they are TW are, and nobody should judge on looks and TW are no danger to women…

The conversation was mostly a highly emotional run through of well-debunked points

• ‘intersex’ - their term,
• most vulnerable group in society, so should have additional rights
• only attack on any woman by TW was by Karen White - who isn’t TW anyway, so doesn’t count)

Any challenge raised the emotional temperature still more

The one glimmer of understanding I did get was that they seemed to have had a desperate need to be accepted as a man, BY MEN while not presenting in line with ‘society’s expectation’ of what a man is. The young women around them had always accepted them for what they are. Ergo, they must be a woman (or non- binary - tbc)

I was so shocked by how ill, and frankly unhinged this person looked and sounded. I am furious that they have been led down this rabbit-hole, trapped into hormone treatment and will quite likely go on to have surgery. It seemed like such a waste that the hugely charismatic, talented gay guy from school was now living like this. I am so sad

Seeing your friend unhappy must have been upsetting, OP, sorry to hear your story. To me it's so clear that the trans activist movement often does not have trans people's best interests and happiness in mind.

Given the sexism and abuse women are subjected to, though, I've no idea why where the idea comes from that transwomen will be safer if they're seen as women. I think we've all got far too used to having women's experiences dismissed.

Valadon68, yes I completely agree that women’s experiences are dismissed (see the thread on Princess Grace hospital - the article posted today is very much in that vein).
One of the points in this conversation which most horrified me was reframing the abuse of women and of transwomen merely as evidence that transwomen are women. There was absolutely no consideration that the abuse is the problem. The only issue is that some evil women won’t accept TWAW. I am still 😱

I'm really sorry about your friend, it must have been quite distressing.

You are a better person than me, I couldn't just nod along, it would have been too frustrating. Was there any doubt at all from them? Or just wanted you to accept everything said?

Onlytemporaryfornow I think you have explained it perfectly. Until now, I hadn’t really understood how badly gender ideology mistreats trans people (and of course gay people). I am no longer surprised by how defensive and emotional so many transwomen TRA’s are. They have been so badly let down by a lack of acceptance by (adult male) society, and then by affirmative ‘care’

The ‘invade female space’ response is exactly in line with an MRA agenda. It is hugely damaging to women, but it is also futile. It still won’t get them what they actually want….most straight men don’t see transwomen as potential partners

That sounds like a very stressful meet up. And they sound very very confused and distraught.

And rather upsetting for you too.

Jeaux90 I understand why you would think that. I started off asking questions, wanting to understand, then gently challenging some of the illogical responses. In the end, it just felt like trying to reason with a wounded animal. Their only position was to keep lashing out.
Helleofabore, yes I am still thinking about it now. Shocking to see such vitriol IRL, and so sad to see the pain it stems from. Mermaids et al have a great deal to answer for. They have sold vulnerable young people lie after lie, and of course those victims are continuing the process, because to admit they are wrong is unthinkable

I certainly won’t be meeting them again!

Poor guy, is all I can say. It sounds like his mental and physical health have been ruined.

Poor man. Poisoned by this Unthink.

If he was embracing being trans happily and had an open mind about women’s rights and freedoms, brilliant. But he was spouting the new misogyny - and it’s twisting him and making him miserable as well as a dangerous addition to the patriarchal oppression of women.

Sadly, and without intending to, he has become an enemy to you and all women.

And to be clear: he’s not an enemy because he’s trans or exploring that, he’s an enemy to women because he denies women’s rights.

The one glimmer of understanding I did get was that they seemed to have had a desperate need to be accepted as a man, BY MEN while not presenting in line with ‘society’s expectation’ of what a man is.

That sounds so sad, for you and your friend @waterwitch And I think you put your finger on it in the bit I've quoted: that masculinity is really tough for the "feminine man."

Since the 19th Century, feminist women have worked really hard to make the 'masculine woman' acceptable - although it was a hard slog, if you go into the history of the way that masculine women were treated right up to very recently - and indeed, still in the UK, and countries other than the UK - think of the 'corrective rape' that lesbians are put through.

Men need to start accepting feminine men, and stop policing varieties of masculinity.

He sounds very unwell, aside from the complete capture of him by the trans right movement. Id probably get banned for saying the word for how I think this group act but I will say they cultivate a very strong hold over seemingly every thought and statement. And the "punishment" for even saying you disagree or that maybe something is not sure right is to be shunned or piled up on until you revert back to the group think.

I think your friend is beyond anything but professional help, and he's never going to agree to that.

It's a bit like watching an alcoholic just keep throwing the whiskey down his throat bottle after bottle. You can only watch on as they spiral down as your offers to help would never be wanted or appreciated.

Beetle I think I would agree with your description. Sadly, the treatment of detransitioners demonstrates that all too clearly. I was originally glad of the chance to ask some of the questions I’ve had first hand. I now have a much clearer idea of what #nodebate looks like in person. It’s not pretty, even when there is no direct personal attack!
Yes, I would agree this person needs professional help. Yes, I would agree that they wouldn’t engage with it. I can only confirm what other people have said on these threads. We construct logical arguments backed by data. This is really important, but it will never convince someone who is immersed in this ideology. It isn’t based on logic or reason at all

I'd be considering the probability that some significant MH issues, or maybe addiction problems, actually predated the obsession with gender ideology. I think that can be a common circumstance and people in that situation can be vulnerable to all kinds of dodgy things.

Not directly a reply to your friend's story, OP, but here's a good article written by a gay man about rejecting gender ideology/queer identity:

quillette.com/2022/11/25/gay-not-queer/

That’s a solid article full of common sense. But how bizarre it is that these truths have to be stated in a society that drowns in delusional gender self-identification, and that it is a risk to do so.

He's really a gay male incel, possibly? With a side-order of male entitlement?

He never got the male partners he thinks he deserves.

So he's taking the new socially-accepted meme of presenting himself as a "woman" and being all fired up about it by TRA propaganda. Despite the reality of his situation.

Does he think that in addition to attracting gay males - if he becomes trans he will also attract hetero males?

If so, that is a very sad scenario. If he's failed to attract other gay men with him being a gay man, then he is fairly unlikely to attract heterosexual men if he declares himself to be a woman.

He needs a good counselling.

Until he gets that, I'd stay away from him, given your reported conversation.

It is sad. But it's not your job to fix him.

Newlightbulbs I understand why you would say that. As a gay man he was hugely charismatic and appeared to be attractive among other gay men. He isn’t now - or at least I didn’t see it. I agree, this situation is beyond anything I could do, I certainly won’t be meeting up again!
JimDixon thankyou for the article, I will look at that later

Excellent article, thank you Jim

What happened?

Toxic masculinity, internalised homophobia and good old fashioned misogyny. Throw in too much time on social media (which creates extreme echo Chambers of masculinity, homophobia and misogyny.

I would hazard to throw in that they have under achieved in life from that early promise. And it wouldn't surprise me if you have done well for yourself by comparison.

A victim mentality and a pattern of blaming others for it, rather than taking responsibility has developed.

I think seeing it first hand is something else. It's a shock. It's a parallel dimension of fantasy thinking

He's a incel.

They have been spending way too much time on the internet....
I know you won't meet again but I'd encourage this person to get out more

Your poor old friend should spend a bit of time watching Mr Menno. It's such a shame that a proud youth turns into a cowed and manipulated young man.

Would he have a transman as sexual partner?

Or get involved in actual community building , just as feminists, lesbians and gay men did. Setting up women’s refuges, helplines, HIV/AIDS charities and so on.