Scottish Gender Reform Recognition - discussion

[ArabellaScott]

LIve now.

Brian Whittle frustrated with Cabinet Secretary over sport right now.

www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/equalities-human-rights-and-civil-justice-committee-november-22-2022

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/gender-msps-under-pressure-define-28554238

'Conservative MSP Jamie Greene introduced an amendment to the Scottish Government's Gender Recognition Reform (GRR) Bill that would implement an aggravator clause for those who go on to commit a crime connected to their gender identity after fraudulently obtaining a new legal sex.

This would mean far tougher penalties for situations where a sex offender gains access to women's spaces, for example. However, the focus has turned to how prosecutors can prove someone had the intention of taking advantage of the simplified process.'

'Ms Robison said: "It would always depend on the circumstances of the case. But for example, if it could be shown that that person had no intention of living in the acquired gender and was in fact, obtaining gender recognition certificate, in full knowledge that they were not and that could be shown and evidence would be gathered and presented to the court."

In support of the Conservative amendment, Ms Robison stated that the addition of an aggravated offence would, in "very unlikely circumstances" demonstrate the seriousness of the crime "not just in terms of making a false declaration, but then going on to commit a crime with a having obtained a gender recognition certificate under false pretences."

Outside of the chamber, critics say the Minister has failed to answer the question.

Lisa McKenzie, of MurrayBlackburnMcKenzie who worked with Mr Greene to form the amendment, said: "Shona's response is total mince. She has no option but to talk mince because how can a court possibly “prove” what was in someone’s head when they applied for a GRC?"'

Rachael Hamilton MSP asking for clarification on the sex/gender question as being argued in court last week.

Cab Sec: 'position of Scot gov is entirely consistent with EHRC position'

Cab Sec - 'yes of course the exemptions matter and are important and should remain. '

Mentions examples in the EA [... forgetting perhaps that a male without a GRC is currently running a Rape Crisis centre in Edinburgh, in a position that was reserved for women under those exemptions]

Rachael Hamilton is a boss.

Amendments are being decided on votes. Generally, 7 people vote. This is farcical.

Pam Gosal and Rachael Hamilton, thank you for standing up for women.

Unfortunately it's about 3 standing for women's rights, 4 standing against, so most of the Amendments are being struck down.

Sarah Boyack now talking about predatory men/bad actors.

She mentions Denmark: rapes and sexual assaults rose the year after self ID was introduced.

‘Total mince’ seems a very accurate description.

There was a glimmer there that they were all going to grasp the fact that a male wishing to access vulnerable women could abuse the self ID system.

I sincerely hope every last one of these MSPs currently voting our rights out of existence wakes up in the middle of the night in a sudden cold sweat, when they finally, FINALLY think through the ramifications that so many people have been saying over and over again.

Stage 2 complete.

This, 100%. It's utterly chilling. I have followed this at a distance - if/when it all goes through what can happen next in terms of challenging the legislation. Is it a judicial review?

I don't honestly know, Sentimental. I have heard rumblings about legal action. EHRC had already written to the Scotgov to raise concerns. But who knows.

Can’t someone just give them a summary from the trans crime website resource or the ‘never happen’ thread and say obviously these were only the ones that made the papers. And the prison statistics on what crimes they are in for (greater % than the rest of the male population are sexual offences). This is unbelievable. Hope it’s easy to reverse. It’s not advantageous or neutral to anyone except those who want to deceive. Those who are truly gender dysphoric are going to be lumped in with the same group.

One thing I noticed from what I heard, Zanda, is that they only discuss these things in the abstract. There was no mention of any concrete examples - I didn't hear all of it but I kept wanting to shout names at them. We know Katie Dolatowski exists, we know Mridhul Wadhwa is in place, Karen White happened, - all of the waffle and verbiage failed to mention the real life effects of what we're talkign about.

And as expected, all that pish around 'We're got concerns but we'll iron it out through the amendments at Stage 2. were shown to be just that...pish.

Why aren’t they looking at facts and data? Mind-blowing.

Yep, Waitwhat. They rocketted through those amendments at lightspeed. Brushed all concerns aside.

It's shit law, on top of other shit laws like the Hate Crime Bill, the Named Persons Act and the Football one.

The main repeated problem with much of the legislation the Scotgov make seems to be these are very abstracted noble ideals, that are met with very real objections that are ignored because the ministers' decisions are largely made on the basis of ideology rather than on taking practical measures to actually address how people live and how things function in the real world.

Yes Arabella. Pure mince

why does my government not care about women and girls

are they frightened of the greens ?

pissed right off with people who get paid to think about all of us not just special people

They are in hock to the greens, since without them propping them up, no majority. The fact that sturgeon is a full on kool aid guzzler doesn't help either.

And JKR gets this 🤷‍♀️

The fabulous Gussie had her say though -
twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1595028730933559296?s=20&t=XiycAlKM5vNoGs8jYGeLTw

And do we think this appalling threat made against JKR will be investigated or any action taken?

I think we all know the answer is a resounding no.

Thank you for the updates ArabellaScott!