Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

[nauticant]

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

i couldn't follow the hearing online, so relying on these threads and TT's excellent tweets. Were there any new downloadable documents released as part of today's session?

So to paraphrase LGB Alliance's LGB people could be a different group of people to LGB people Mermaids might refer to.

It makes it very hard to draft any legislation around conversion therapy if leading charities within the area cannot even agree what LGB is.

LGB - we know what this is

T - yeah OK

Q - no idea. Queer? ( Not a pleasant word imho) Questioning? That could be anyone

I - intersex, I think. A medical condition

A - ally. Probably straight but with a weird haircut. Or possibly asexual, which is all of us occasionally

• • even less of an idea. Other than plus-sized, I have no context for this at all

So from my perspective, everything to the right of B could be absolutely anyone.

Ooh my -plus- went odd

Ooh my -plus- went odd

Sure it didn't go queer?

It was in response to the bench asking how we are defining LGB. IS said it would be helpful if both parties could provide a definition of what they believe LGB means.

Absolutely. Things are getting ridiculous: whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/11/07/luana-maroja-on-the-ideological-threat-to-biology/

+ - even less of an idea. Other than plus-sized, I have no context for this at all

Whaat?? I'm not quite there yet but the threat of finding myself under the umbrella will definitely incentivise dieting!

Regarding awarding of costs, this is a tribunal case, and particularly a case in the General Regulatory Chamber. This is from 2013:

13. Third, in some chambers an award of costs may only be made where costs have been incurred as a result of a party’s, or representative’s, unreasonable conduct:
(i) Cases in the Health, Education and Social Care Chamber (save for mental health), see rule 10(1) of the FTT(HESC) Rules.
(ii) In the General Regulatory Chamber (see rule 10 of the Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (General Regulatory Chamber) Rules 2009).

publiclawproject.org.uk/content/uploads/data/resources/79/PLP_2013_Hannett_Costs_in_the_Tribunals.pdf

Thank you for this thread,I've been at work all day with no internet access.Which is probably a very good thing as the 'Bundlejuice' comments have had me snorting and choking with laughter.😂

NEVER!!!

Wash out your mouth . . .

I can relate but think we can identify out of it now and fit into size 10s anyway.

Bit late to this thread but if I was Mermaids I’d be furious at whoever instructed Mr Gibbon - I’m surprised the panel wasn’t asleep by the end.

Mr Steele was so much more engaging, and of course his points were actually worth listening to.

Looking forward to tuning in tomorrow.

I'm identifying as an 18 yr old, tall, leggy, blonde size 4 model.

🤔🤔🙄🤣

(I'm 70, was brunette now silver, short, squat and a size 16)

The Guardian has reported on it

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/07/lgb-alliance-provides-public-benefit-court-hears-in-case-brought-by-trans-group

He said LGB Alliance had repeatedly described Mermaids in derogatory terms, accusing the charity of promoting a “gender identity ideology”, of inappropriately medicalising children, “of child abuse, basically”, and of having homophobic views.

Do you suppose the Guardian. article mentions any of the reasons people might have an unfavourable view of Mermaids?

(It was a rhetorical question, but I did check just in case. Of course it doesn’t.)

No mention in the article about Mermaids repeatedly calling LGBA a hate group and fascists.

However, the headline 'LGB Alliance provides ‘public benefit’, court hears, in case brought by trans group' is one I never thought The Guardian would go with

Have the Graun finally worked out which way the wind is blowing?

I noticed Amelia Gentleman's name in the observer list.

It’s a v straight report. Obviously, not a criminal case but reporting of current legal cases has to stick to what’s been said in court until after judgment

Just caught up, thanks everyone! Back tomorrow!

I listened into a space on Twitter this evening, discussing the day's events of the hearing.

The host (Robbie Travers) made a great comment about the 'abuse' that the MM volunteers received.

He said people were calling them and offering cheap holidays to Thailand! 😂

The joke had the definite whiff of the viper's nest, I thought. 😉

Thanks for this thread everyone, very illuminating. Just checking in so I can find you easily tomorrow.

Thanks for the threads and the updates, all of you. Really interesting and helpful.