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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever wonder, what else have I been horribly wrong on all this time?

278 replies

JaneorEleven · 04/11/2022 03:16

Do you ever wonder, what else have I been horribly wrong on all this time? If I was SO wrong on those that are GC, what else have I been wrong on?

All my life I’ve been solidly left leaning, and pretty much agreed with most points on the left. I’ve described myself as an old fashioned socialist, love the idea of the NHS, a safety net for lower income people and unemployed, social and economic equality, disability rights, rights for women all tied up with feminism including being pro-choice, LGB and the TQ etc rights, you name it, I supported it.

I had previously been very sympathetic to Trans issues, and had a friend who transitioned, and I supported this person as best I could. But after some time of researching and I guess educating myself for lack of a better expression, I did a complete uturn on this, and found myself agreeing with many wise GC women. It was a bell I couldn’t unring. And Mumsnet played a large part in this.

I’m British now living in the US, and find myself busy Terfing USA. I’ve listened to NPR for years, nodding along, but now almost daily, they have a segment that infuriates me with regards to Trans issues. Could be anything from “trans kids” not getting their meds, to prisons, to bathrooms, schools, and they support it all. Female reporters who I held in high esteem, interviewing and fawning over transwomen, platforming them and letting them hold court without challenging them.

These past few weeks, I’ve started to question myself. How could I have been so wrong on this? I thought GC peeps, or Terfs, were full of hate and lacked patience and understanding.

Which leads me to ask, on what else have I been so badly wrong? Anyone else think like this? Now I don’t think I’m a closet right winger, but is it possible I’ve allowed the left to lead me up the garden path on other issues too?

OP posts:
nauticant · 04/11/2022 16:35

For me it all happened in 2016. I was becoming disenchanted with the Left (used in the progressive umbrella sense) as more and more it relied on a sense of moral superiority, and where any level of vitriol in attacking the morally inferior was justified. Around the same time I started to become aware of gender identity ideology and really didn't like what I was seeing as being anti-scientific, anti-Enlightenment, anti-safeguarding, and ragingly misogynistic. And then Brexit happened which was taken by many progressives as an open season for them to go wild with virtuous bigotry against Brexiteers.

BedTaker · 04/11/2022 16:37

I don't know if it's this issue on particular or just the fact I'm getting older and more mature, but I do think my world view has changed on politics etc.

I used to believe that left=tolerant, compassionate, kind, feminist, good and right=intolerant, out for yourself, bigoted tendencies, generally bad.

This issue in particular has opened my eyes as to how this is really not the case. There is intolerance, bigotry and toxic narrative on all sides. And beng on 'the wrong side' for basically the first time in my life has made me think more about why people might disagree with me on other things and has definitely made me more tolerant of other points of view.

I don't think I will be voting Conservative any time soon, not unless things seriously change, but I have definitely changed my outlook on all issues.

Msgrieves · 04/11/2022 16:51

I really think that fact that the word conspiracy has been made radioactive is in itself a conspiracy. To think people don't collude, or plan to bring about a change is plainly ridiculous.

Any hint that something (that is not espouced by the BBC) is a conspiracy theory and the "right" thinking people in society automatically reject any kind of discourse around it. You see it here every day, this day in fact. Oh no my husband is questioning the mainstream, should I leave him? Would ayou know, 90% of respondents say yes Hmm

nauticant · 04/11/2022 16:55

I don't go along with the idea of an overarching conspiracy reaching into all that is going on but there are individual threads of conspiracy, sometimes which overlap/connect. One only needs to read the infamous Dentons' document to see the evidence for that.

ArabellaScott · 04/11/2022 16:57

Msgrieves · 04/11/2022 16:51

I really think that fact that the word conspiracy has been made radioactive is in itself a conspiracy. To think people don't collude, or plan to bring about a change is plainly ridiculous.

Any hint that something (that is not espouced by the BBC) is a conspiracy theory and the "right" thinking people in society automatically reject any kind of discourse around it. You see it here every day, this day in fact. Oh no my husband is questioning the mainstream, should I leave him? Would ayou know, 90% of respondents say yes Hmm

Yes, 'conspiracy' has become a useful way to dismiss any dissent.

EndlessTea · 04/11/2022 17:00

Yes. It shames people for joining up the dots.

ArabellaScott · 04/11/2022 17:07

Well, or for even asking questions.

EndlessTea · 04/11/2022 17:16

Yes.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/11/2022 17:21

Did they never consider women would fight back, at all?

I don't think they did Arabella. I suspect that the leading proponents were men of limited insight and empathy, very caught up with their personal excitement at pushing boundaries and using their low level managerial skills, experiences of dominating conversations / rooms etc to push their personal tedious beliefs. Having cleverly identified their group as the most oppressed ever they were evidently pushing at a door opened by clueless politicians.
Women didn't factor anywhere in their thoughts - the irony 🙄

BatCheeseIsFine · 04/11/2022 18:04

I used to believe that left=tolerant, compassionate, kind, feminist, good and right=intolerant, out for yourself, bigoted tendencies, generally bad.

This issue in particular has opened my eyes as to how this is really not the case.

Yes me too. I used to wonder how anyone could be anything other than left wing, as it was clearly the side of goodness and kindness.

I still am left-wing, especially in an economic, materialist, traditional way. But I now see that so much left-wingery is about trying to grab the moral high ground and is essentially selfish, and identity politics has come along and hijacked that in a huge way.

I also know right-wing people who are kind and decent, are there for their friends and neighbours, and are happy to discuss issues we disagree on with me in a reasonable way. I don't agree with them, but at least they acknowledge that different views exist.

BatCheeseIsFine · 04/11/2022 18:09

Also the idea that GC people are just full of hate and bigotry... it always puzzles me how they make this stick. Why do so few people stop to think "why would a bunch of feminists and lesbians be bigots? What are they actually saying?" Yet the same people could see immediately why, for example, "identifying" as a different race, or as disabled when you're not, is offensive and untrue, or that agreeing to kids being sterilised or having unevidenced treatments in any other context would not be OK. It shows up the hatred of women and the willingness to misrepresent them and discount them, deeply embedded in the left.

WrongWayApricot · 04/11/2022 18:15

I've always found the stereotyping sexist and offensive but kept my views to myself a long time. Then there were some women's spirituality groups that were being attacked by the TRAs and I felt more strongly that it's ridiculous and not a case of live and let live anymore. Then mitchfest had tw marching its borders with weapons and I felt angry, then mitchfest was closed down and I was furious.

The main view that has changed is that I feel understanding of the elderly people that voted leave. I used to think if I was very elderly I'd vote for what younger people wanted because I wouldn't be around much longer to see it anyway. Then I realised I would vote against self id even if I knew I was dying tomorrow. I would want to protect younger women even if the majority of them wanted to self destruct. I can see that that's what elderly people were doing by voting leave even if they might not see the effects of brexit. Even though I disagree with their choice, I understand they thought that was best for people younger than them.

nauticant · 04/11/2022 18:18

Left vs Right is less important to me now than whether someone is authoritarian and whether they're willing to accept that others can have an opposing view and yet still be decent people.

Although the increasing polarisation of the past few years have been alarming to see, one unexpected benefit is that it's shaken a lot of the tribal thinking out of my world view.

scaredoff · 04/11/2022 18:32

Obviously like anyone I've been misinformed about some things and refined certain views as I've got older. But I never believed in gender ideology, I thought it was nonsense from the start.

I love the idea of "Terfing USA" though. :)

BatCheeseIsFine · 04/11/2022 18:40

The odd thing is there is nothing especially left-wing at all about insisting someone is whatever sex they say they are and that males should be able to access women's spaces and sports on their say-so. It's been made to seem socially liberal by force teaming it with gay rights, but if that hadn't been so successful, lefty SJWs would see that shamelessly appropriating women's (and men's though it has less serious effects) "lived experience" is what they would normally be opposed to. The lefties of the 80s when I was young were all about women's rights and unique experiences because of their sex.

Torunette · 04/11/2022 18:44

BedTaker · 04/11/2022 16:37

I don't know if it's this issue on particular or just the fact I'm getting older and more mature, but I do think my world view has changed on politics etc.

I used to believe that left=tolerant, compassionate, kind, feminist, good and right=intolerant, out for yourself, bigoted tendencies, generally bad.

This issue in particular has opened my eyes as to how this is really not the case. There is intolerance, bigotry and toxic narrative on all sides. And beng on 'the wrong side' for basically the first time in my life has made me think more about why people might disagree with me on other things and has definitely made me more tolerant of other points of view.

I don't think I will be voting Conservative any time soon, not unless things seriously change, but I have definitely changed my outlook on all issues.

I am heavily involved in local government and the civic realm in my area. I know people from across the political parties who are also active.

One thing that is very obvious is that all the really wonderful people on a local level, no matter the party, essentially believe in the same things. They have similar views and pretty much the same opinions on things. Okay, they may differ in what they might prioritise above something else in the great list of priorities, or what makes them rant over a pint, but they pretty much agree with what is most important.

If they are asked whether they want to prioritise a bus service for disabled kids over, say, cutting some verges in a posh area, they will prioritise the bus service every time. If they are asked whether they want to keep a library open in a wealthy area or put more resources into a community centre in a poorer area, they will choose the latter every time.

Yet I look at the other people in their respective parties, and half the time I think "Why the hell are you in Labour? You constantly prioritise elite or business interests above the populace" or "Why are you in the Conservatives? You don't actually want to conserve anything. You are a radical libertarian anarchist."

These days, I tend to divide people in local government based on whether they are selfish twats or not, rather than their political party. It's a remarkably useful gauge.

One problem I think we have in Britain these days is that people decide their political allegiances based on what is "left wing" or "right wing" within their own personal contexts and experience.

So you get an upper-middle class, privately educated graduate who thinks they are "left wing" and votes Labour because, essentially, they have different perspectives on society and the economy to their elderly parents who have always voted Conservative. They, for example, might think the NHS is the cornerstone of a civilised society, compared to their Tory father who thinks it is a bottomless pit that will ultimately bankrupt the country.

But the issue here is that Labour-voting graduate is voting Labour based on the world they inhabit, and that world is a million miles away from the one that is inhabited by hundreds of thousands of people living on sink estates in the North.

So when someone in the Labour party that comes along from that world and says: "We need to sort out law and order and council enforcement" because public parks are riddled with fly-tipping and drug dealers, the schools have been infiltrated by county lines, and there's used syringes everywhere, and one kid has already been knifed, that Labour voting graduate shivers and thinks "that's a bit right-wing" because it's something his father would say, and his father is a Tory. It's this person who then says something like "No, what we really need to solve this problem is not more police and harder sentences, but more investment and support in community-driven social enterprises, and more support for struggling families."

It's the same the other way around. You get Conservative-voting kids of Labour voting parents because they don't identify with the perspectives of their parents, but what those kids think Conservativism is relates entirely to their personal context vis a vis their parents or peers. They are defining themselves politically against a situation that is very specific to them.

So Conservatism for them ends up meaning wanting to buy their own house or have a car or not live on a sink estate or open a stocks and shares ISA (it's quite astonishing how many working-class people in post-industrial areas vote Conservative based on the fact they have invested some of their wages in blue-chip shares). If they go into the army, it means supporting the military structure that is their life.

But that is a million miles away from the Conservatism of the Home Counties or of Tory Peers in the House of Lords or of David Cameron and George Osbourne or the City of London. So when you get bonkers decisions about tax and spend and public services, it's being supported by people voting for a party that is not actually acting in their interests whatsoever.

I guess what I am saying is that the decline of a class-base to political parties has caused utter chaos, which is somewhat of a Marxist rumbling.

But it is also the reason why huge numbers of people on a local level in both Labour and the Conservatives really ought to be in the same party as each other because the Labour woman from the sink estate who doesn't want needles left on the swings is essentially working from the same hymn sheet as the Tory-voter who got out of the sink estate, precisely because of those problems. And neither of them live in the same world as the Labour-voting upper-middle-class graduate or the Tory peer.

ArabellaScott · 04/11/2022 18:53

This might seem a tangent, but the paragraph about knife crime reminded me of the work of Karen McClusky, who piloted the Violence Reduction Unit and has massively reduced violence in Scottish cities, starting with Glasgow:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/scotlands-murder-rate-lowest-40-years/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45572691

I don't really have a relevant point, other than I think what she's done is amazing and she deserves more credit. Smile

BlackForestCake · 04/11/2022 18:58

I am still left-wing but I have realised that organisations of all kinds essentially operate on low-level bullying, and I don't really know what the solution is.

It's one reason cancel culture is so dangerous. We need to encourage people to speak up when something is wrong, not to keep their mouths shut for fear of saying the wrong thing.

Byfleet · 04/11/2022 19:16

@Torunette
Every word of your last post is fabulous! 👏🏼

dandelionthistle · 04/11/2022 19:18

BatCheeseIsFine · 04/11/2022 18:09

Also the idea that GC people are just full of hate and bigotry... it always puzzles me how they make this stick. Why do so few people stop to think "why would a bunch of feminists and lesbians be bigots? What are they actually saying?" Yet the same people could see immediately why, for example, "identifying" as a different race, or as disabled when you're not, is offensive and untrue, or that agreeing to kids being sterilised or having unevidenced treatments in any other context would not be OK. It shows up the hatred of women and the willingness to misrepresent them and discount them, deeply embedded in the left.

Yes. I think part of this is the absolute unwillingness to recognise women as an oppressed minority (unless there are intersecting axes of oppression - typically not including age or motherhood!).

Which, to pick up a post a page or two back, is IMO much the better parallel with how Jewish people are often perceived (rather than the 'in some ways oppressed, in other ways privileged' line that PP took, in comparing Jews to trans people), and consequently disregarded by an id-pol oriented "left wing".

dandelionthistle · 04/11/2022 19:22

Byfleet · 04/11/2022 19:16

@Torunette
Every word of your last post is fabulous! 👏🏼

Agree.

If there is any hope for the future it's in people developing a better and more compassionate and respectful understanding of each other, and in tapping into that local generosity and civic-mindedness that does seem to exist across the political spectrum.

I suppose this is part of what that awful Guardian column 'dining across the divide' is supposed to get at, only it's so fucking banal and self-conscious it makes me cringe!

NotBadConsidering · 04/11/2022 20:35

And I don't really give a sh1t about being called a Tory! I'm in it for that poor young girl.

Exactly. I don’t care about being called anything. If I help just one child avoid having irreversible damage reaped upon their bodies, I’ll take all the intolerant slurs it takes to do so.

ArabellaScott · 04/11/2022 22:46

It's been noted that using 'Tory' as an insult only works on people you think are actually leftwing.

Baaaaaa · 04/11/2022 22:56

Left, right it's all fucking tribal.

I always identified as and voted liberal but liberal is just a word.

I still believe in the concept of enlightenment liberalism.

I still believe in a big state and distrubution of wealth but not at the cost of economic stability and as far as I am concerned identity is an integral part of humanity, but it is a synonym for EGO. It is the main cause of war. It's not something to be celebrated.

I like the saying (falsely attributed to Churchill) that goes along the lines of.." If you're not a socialist at 25 you don't have a heart, if you aren't a Conservative by 35 you don't have a brain"

Baaaaaa · 04/11/2022 23:01

That said I'm a bit squiffy and I definately identify as mumsnet sexual. You are all ravishingly, intellectually gorgeous and I can't blame anyone from wanting to identify into that!

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