Do you ever wonder, what else have I been horribly wrong on all this time?

[JaneorEleven]

Do you ever wonder, what else have I been horribly wrong on all this time? If I was SO wrong on those that are GC, what else have I been wrong on?

All my life I’ve been solidly left leaning, and pretty much agreed with most points on the left. I’ve described myself as an old fashioned socialist, love the idea of the NHS, a safety net for lower income people and unemployed, social and economic equality, disability rights, rights for women all tied up with feminism including being pro-choice, LGB and the TQ etc rights, you name it, I supported it.

I had previously been very sympathetic to Trans issues, and had a friend who transitioned, and I supported this person as best I could. But after some time of researching and I guess educating myself for lack of a better expression, I did a complete uturn on this, and found myself agreeing with many wise GC women. It was a bell I couldn’t unring. And Mumsnet played a large part in this.

I’m British now living in the US, and find myself busy Terfing USA. I’ve listened to NPR for years, nodding along, but now almost daily, they have a segment that infuriates me with regards to Trans issues. Could be anything from “trans kids” not getting their meds, to prisons, to bathrooms, schools, and they support it all. Female reporters who I held in high esteem, interviewing and fawning over transwomen, platforming them and letting them hold court without challenging them.

These past few weeks, I’ve started to question myself. How could I have been so wrong on this? I thought GC peeps, or Terfs, were full of hate and lacked patience and understanding.

Which leads me to ask, on what else have I been so badly wrong? Anyone else think like this? Now I don’t think I’m a closet right winger, but is it possible I’ve allowed the left to lead me up the garden path on other issues too?

I really don't get this. People can shout abuse, or they can gently mock, and the target can be anything from a political position which is evidenced based, to a political position which is wholly unsupported by the evidence, to a religious belief that cannot be tested by evidence. That someone mock sor abuses says precisely nothing about whether the target deserves it or not, is right or wrong.

It's just happened for me aged 37.. woke up to how bad prostitution, porn, onlyfans, old men creeping on young women is etc. Just used to laugh it all off or make jokes.

Oops this is the sex/gender forum, sorry!

I have felt marginalized for years. Figured it was part of democracy. It isn’t.

If you look at what has happened in the Western world, you have 50% or more going to university. Everyone is qualified but no one knows what they are doing. I ‘only’ have a bachelor degree so I’m not qualified for many roles. Yet I’ve started a company and built it into a multimillion revenue producing company. Im working at a start up now. Shocking that I’m the only woman and shocking that the knives are out for me. The latest attack was I don’t have a masters so I’m not qualified. Really? So why am I running circles around all of you?!?

The oppression is very real and people like me are pushed out to the fringe because we are a threat to those that exploit others. The BLM, trans debate and social capital conversation is only a distraction and tool to cause more fragmentation of our society.

The attack on private schools is ridiculous. Who cares that a parent decides to send their child to a private school. Everyone is following the same curriculum. Everyone is given the same test papers and graded the same way. Do you really think these parents are going to sit back and allow their child to float through school?!? Hell no. I’m one of those parents. I will never allow my children to attend state school in any country ever again. For college, my children will only go to a private school in the top 50 or they can go do a vocational program. I will work 3 jobs to pay the fees. Critical race theory curriculum had a teacher telling my white children that they are less than because they are white. No child, no matter their skin color needs to hear that they are better or less than because of their skin color. It’s just another tool to divide our society.

FWIW my children are at Catholic school and I keep a close eye on what’s going on. I don’t need my daughters to play second fiddle to a bunch of boys. As soon as I can get them in the all girls school I will feel a lot more comfortable.

Definitely!

Recently I've been thinking that in the noble aim of women's equality, we have possibly played down the differences between the sexes. If I'm brutally honest, we're very open about the areas where we women have a natural advantage, but complete denial about the ways men have, in general across the population, a natural advantage. And that denial probably pissed some men off and its only now that I can slightly sympathise.

It's obviously very nuanced and the differences are NOT person to person but yes I've been thinking about that as a result of all this.

Thank you for being open-minded enough to see this.

I too have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people, as I do for lots of people around the world living in bad situations. But the reality is that the obsessive focus on it in the UK and elsewhere is massively, massively disproportionate in relation to things that are happening in other countries - in many cases on a far larger scale - and it's motivated mostly by antisemitism, which never really went away, even after the Holocaust.

The things that have been said/written to me and to other Jews during the past few years have nothing at all to do with Israel. It's mostly just naked, raw, ugly old-fashioned Jew-hatred.

love the idea of the NHS, a safety net for lower income people and unemployed, social and economic equality, disability rights, rights for women all tied up with feminism including being pro-choice, LGB and the TQ etc rights, you name it, I supported it.
I find this bizarre. People from the right agree with all these things too.

I agree. We all want the able to support the less privileged. Even the wealthy want a bit of civilised redistribution because the alternative is an uncivilised redistribution! (revolution, theft, looting, etc)
All we are arguing about is where the boundaries (tax rates etc) are; where is 'the middle ground'. The other side is not 'evil' or 'scum'; they just have a different view to you. That's allowed, isn't it?*

*Actually, I think that that is the problem. Socialism only works if everyone does it. So socialists have to make sure that everyone is on board and dissent is not welcomed. Hence the slide towards Orwell's idea that it's not enough to merely obey Big Brother, you have to unquestionably love him and his ideas too.

Oh, op ... I could talk about this for hours.

I've been smacked in the face by what I've been horribly wrong on in the past. Almost everything I thought I knew in my 20s turned out to be wrong.

The three things that rocked my worldview most of all were ...

• that the Emmeline Pankhurst was initially fighting for the vote to be returned to femme sole women after it had been removed by the Great Reform Act, and that these women had held the right to vote since Tudor times. This puts a massively different spin on Victorian patriarchy vis a vis the desire to grasp capital, made me understand Woolf's Orlando better, realise that a subtle change in language in legislation is a horrifically powerful tool, and changed my view on the nature of progressivism.
• that Keynes believed public spending should never be more than about 23% of GDP. I was stunned when I learned this. At the time, I was reading left wing arguments over "needing Keynesianism" when public sector spending was about 46% of GDP.
• that the state of the deindustrialised North is more to do with the collapse of the textile industry between 1890 and 1960 (roughly 750,000 jobs lost with a total knock-on effect of about 1.5 million) and the economic impact of WWI than anything that occurred between 1979 and 1992 under Thatcher. Case in point, while the collapse of the mining industry destroyed certain towns and villages, the number of lost jobs in mining between 1979 and 2010 was around 185,000.

There's been so many other things like this. I got into the habit of reading old 19th century Chartist newspapers a while ago, and I have come across things that have blown my mind.

When I was in my twenties, I thought we were a first world country that needed to "level up" its post-industrial working-class communities: correct the mistakes of the 50s, 60s and 70s, so to speak.

Now I realise we are tackling the entire legacy of Victorian industrialisation and empire, and losing badly. It made us a wealthy country in name, but one still under the whip of a hard, arrogant and heavy elite whose institutions still rule sway and still under the yoke of an imperialist paradigm. For that "British" elite, in my opinion, still see the ordinary people of England and, to some extent, Wales as the "natives" of an imperial territory they rule.

Put it this way, if we had a landmass the size of the US, many of our Northern towns and cities would have become Detroits abandoned and crumbling thirty years ago or more. But we don't have that landmass. People had nowhere else to move to, so they stayed in the ruins of an industrial Rome to watch everything slowly began to fall apart and disappear.

There needs to be a reckoning really. Brexit was a giant klaxon of an alarm about it, but the elites don't pay any real attention. To them, it is just "native unrest." But I am really concerned about the possibility of some sort of state failure in my lifetime now. God knows we have severe pressures with public amenities such as energy, water, sewage and refuse.

There are things I suspect I may be wrong about right now ...

• Localism. I'm starting to wonder whether it breeds a dangerous parochialism and allows individuals with wealth to dominate and manipulate an area.
• The Monarchy. I am no fervent monarchist, but I appreciated the sense of stability the Monarchy gave the country. Now I'm starting to wonder that sense of stability is actually covering over the serious cracks in the foundation of the nation.
• Censorship. I don't know how to square this circle. I don't believe in censorship, but I am starting to feel very uncomfortable with the types of bizarre pornography that is now freely available. You can't even describe it as "pornography" anymore because it has nothing to do with actual sex. Some of it is verging on a kind of insanity -- there's one bloke who built a contraption so he could video using a ball-gagged woman's naked breasts to print reams of wallpaper, for example. How the hell are you supposed to process that?
• Society. I used to think it could work, that the majority of folk were reasonable. Now I am starting to realise that a hellova lot of people are just absolute bastards. How the fuck can you work with someone who thinks it is their right to speed at 60 mph in front of a primary school? And fucking defends it? And argues for the right to do it?

Is it possible that there is a lot of subconscious anti-semitism that goes into why the plight of the Palestinians is so publicised in comparison to other issues, whilst the actual treatment of the issue is not particularly anti-semitic?

Is it possible that the massive support that the UK and especially USA give Israel means that the left's focus on the plight of the Palestinians is actually kind of proportionate in terms of how their government's see Israel compared to how their government's treat most other countries?

Has anyone else noticed that one could make an argument that trans people and the jewish community share something? They are both EXCEPTIONALLY underprivileged in some respects, whilst being pretty damn privileged in others?

@Torunette

I agree with you. Localism is a nightmare. You end up with certain families who own land/have money dominating. I say this as the family of a village where we are the ones with the money. I see the problems and I am vocal. We have to all run along together and everyone has to follow the rules. Liverpool is the same issue on a bigger scale. The Westminster family have made a fortune, literally billions, from that city.

Society, well it was never going to work. Society is made up of families. This is why marriage matters and children need to grow up in a stable home. A sense of belonging for them is vital to their growth. As a parent, I have seen how my children benefit from knowing both their parents and their families. Nowt queer as folk. That’s why you stick to your family as your base.

Torunette, that is a fascinating post, thank you!

Often there is more to accepted truisms than we are led to believe. I'm very tired of spin.

I found this Thatcher quote and common usage interesting: 'there's no such thing as society'.

The quote in full: 'There is no such thing as society. ... There is [a] living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate'

www.margaretthatcher.org/document/106689

One could of course argue how effective her policies were in achieving the right balance of personal and state responsibility, but it seems clear to me that the much-quoted line doesn't mean at all what it is most often used to imply.

I didn’t finish my post…

I grew up in the NW and it’s shocking to see the level of deprivation which exists. It is a hangover of the Industrial Revolution and no one wants to admit it. If you look closely through it’s an area which has driven the technological revolution too. Manchester is the tech hub of the UK. The innovation happening at the university has been nothing short of transformative and yet no one knows. Ownership of this technology left the UK. Could you imagine the wealth in the NW of that technology had remained in the UK?

I used to think that Labour was the only moral party, the Tories were scum, the Guardian was the only paper worth reading and the Times, Telegraph, Daily Mail, Sun, Mirror an absolute hotbed of right-wing hate. I hadn't even heard of the Spectator.

This whole debate - and the damage that's being done to the lesbians, women and children. Pushed by the Greens and Labour and now only being questioned by the Conservatives (who knows if there are nefarious motives by some of the Tory men, but I trust implicitly however the Baroness and Miriam Cates) has opened my eyes to the wider political debate. My friends are shocked when I post an article from the Times ("Oh, I can't read that, I don't subscribe to it", "Well I've a shared token for it" silence).

I have a friend whose daughter decided she was a boy, see. The Dad had passed away from cancer when the daughter was a young teen. Mum started drinking and was more or less absent as a mother for a long while. DD, lesbian, GNC, spent a lot of time on the internet. Daughter was referred to CAMHS as had an ED. Oh she is a boy! they decided. Along came the puberty blockers, gifted on a plate, cross-sex hormones. Double mastectomy. Now she, has de-transitioned but her body is ruined. So I've seen what Labour and the general 'left' throughout the western world support, and I cannot un-see this.

Yes the Tories have been a shit-show for us and the next couple of years are going to be really tough for many of us.
But I've joined the Tory women to fight to get as much passed through the Houses to protect women's rights. So it makes it harder for Labour to decimate them when they undoubtedly take over in 2 years' time.

And I don't really give a sh1t about being called a Tory! I'm in it for that poor young girl.

Also wanted to say thank you to all the posters above. What a great thread. I only wish I could write as eloquently (or even be able to sort out the jumble of thoughts in my head).

Thanks so everyone for their thoughtful posts and observations. I’m just getting caught up with the thread, and really appreciate the responses to my original OP.

Seconded Feather.
So much to think about and so many thoughtful insightful posts.

The liberal/left media coverage of Brexit was another nail in their coffin for me. I recall Polly Toynbee writing this in the Guardian a day or two before the referendum. I was a firm remainer - and still am - but I her inflammatory tone and language had me thinking, 'Do I really want to be on the same side as this'?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/friday-britain-remain-leave-campaign-foreigners

Pretty much same, this issue is the one that really opened my eyes. That young person could have been my daughter, she suddenly declared herself trans around puberty, fueled by tumblr. I had already read a bit on here so had some kind of clue. I was a crap mother due to depression, it could have easily gone down the full transition route. She is 19 now and although androgynous presenting (also still mildly brainwashed into the gender cult) she hasn't gone any further.

This is an interesting, important thread. Second the thanks to those better equipped to organise and convey thoughts. Rare on here, nevermind the Internet these days.

Also wanted to add my thanks - an interesting and enlightening afternoon, although not really what I should have been doing, but maybe more worthwhile!

Anyone can be wrong about big topics. In fact we're probably mostly wrong about details even when we're generally right about the big stuff. That's why it's important to keep discussing and learning, not shutting down anything as taboo or as not worth bothering with. In my case I learned a huge amount about history as an adult and came to a whole new perspective on a lot of things.

Well @ArabellaScott I've read the new improved, long version of Thatcher's ' society" quote a few times to see if I've missed some kernel of compassion.. Sorry , it's even worse than the precis. Shorn of the flowery stuff about the rich tapestry blah blah she is saying : if you fall by the wayside there is always private charity.

Actually one of the biggest impacts of having-that-experience-that-we-cannot-name for me has been becoming far, far more aware of ad hom attacks and how they generally signal a weakness in the argument of the person making them.

It's also taught me to look for evidence to support (and/or refute) any assertion. I trust nothing that doesn't quote its source, and I now check the source for context and verification. And look for counter-arguments.

I suppose I'm more cynical; I hope I'm also more aware of cognitive dissonance, more willing to be flexible in my thinking; more open to considering other people's views; more curious; less judgemental; less certain; more aware of my own blindspots.

I also hope that I'm more aware of nuance and try to avoid black-and-white thinking. And tribalism.

It hasn't been easy, at all, but I think overall its been valuable.

I don't believe there's an over arching conspiracy. I think, laughably, it's a bit like ants and termites can build amazing structures by following some basic rules even if there is no overarching plan

I don’t think there is an out and out overarching driver, but nor do I think it’s been accidentally constructed by crowds of people, none of whom have any idea what they’re doing, which is what your termite analogy would imply.

I think that several things have occurred simultaneously that have resulted in those pushing this agenda being way more successful than might have been imaginable a few years back.

Those pushing the agenda would include intelligent, persistent and subtle activists, pushing behind the scenes, like Stephen Whittle as well as those like Martine Rothblatt who came up with a vision and has the money and connections to invest in achieving it.

Those activists have been given a massive advantage because the internet has opened up the western world and allows connections in a way that has never been possible before.

At the same time the US, which is still very influential, has become deeply corrupted by the desire for money and power. You only have to look at the lists of potential presidential candidates to notice that it is possible in the US to buy power and influence. How likely is it that two people from the same family are coincidentally the best people for leadership? Yet over and over, the same names pop up.

Then there is the related issue of medicine, which is also deeply corrupted by monetisation.

I don’t believe there is some massive conspiracy where a few individuals set out with specific goals in mind and planned it down to every detail, but I do believe there has been undue influence from various quarters, who have taken advantage of their knowledge and understanding of these power structures and have used them to massive advantage.

The termite argument falls apart when you look at what’s happening now. When it was being quietly driven from underneath, enormous progress was made. Unfortunately for those subtle actors, their cause has become popular with a good number of people who are mentally unstable and have no understanding of the need to work quietly, but are now clamouring loudly and threatening the whole structure in a way that termites wouldn’t.

Those quiet activists have missed the boat in the UK. GRA reform was supposed to occur before anyone noticed. As soon as a significant number of people became aware of the fact that the main drive of transactivism was not to make the lives of transitioning people easier, but rather to allow men who wanted access to women’s spaces to have it, the wheels began to fall off.

The Denton’s document and the interviews with Christine Burns, who is proud of having driven moves towards significant legal changes, unnoticed by the media, are absolute proof that there was some planning involved and that this didn’t occur because of an army of woker ants, following some basic rules they didn’t understand. The number of people driving this is, in fact, relatively small. Did activists get lucky? Yes. Was it all a happy accident, where a marvellous structure just happened to be built without anyone driving it or even understanding why? No.

Do you think? I thought she was just saying that one has to give as well as take?

I admit I might have been suckered by the pretty image of a tapestry.

Here's the bit preceding:

'I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand “I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!” or “I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!” “I am homeless, the Government must house me!” and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and [end p29] there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation and it is, I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—“It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it”.'

I think that's fairly straightforward 'small state' conservatism, isn't it? One may or may not agree with it, or the degree to which the Tories want/wanted to implement it, but it's not saying that there should be no welfare state at all, which is what I'd always been led to believe.

Those quiet activists have missed the boat in the UK. GRA reform was supposed to occur before anyone noticed. As soon as a significant number of people became aware of the fact that the main drive of transactivism was not to make the lives of transitioning people easier, but rather to allow men who wanted access to women’s spaces to have it, the wheels began to fall off.

I do wonder about what they thought would happen once they'd achieved this, though. It will only work for so long as women meekly accept having no spaces to themselves, no rights left. Did they never consider women would fight back, at all?