Struggling with the misogyny of female TRAs

[TheirEminence]

There is something I don’t understand and I hope MN can help. What is the general psychological profile of female people (trans-masculine, non-binary, women identify as ‘cis’) who are rabid TRAs? Not just going along with things ‘to be kind’ but the true believers with total ideological commitment?

I know we discuss TW a lot on this forum and what we perceive as their male entitlement and often complete lack of understanding for the female condition but what drives female TRAs? There is a strong desire to punish, and a taste for persecution and hunting for apostates, sometimes fairly obvious self-promotion. Sometimes it seems to be strong investment in one’s own or a close relative’s transition.

What is the psychology of this, is it specific to female people - or is this a daft question?

It is interesting and I do think it is dismissive to assume it's misogyny, lack of education or lack of critical thinking. I do think there is an element of people wanting to support the oppressed. Having already understood the reasons why racism, homophobia and misogyny are all harmful and how we can be unconsciously unaware that our actions and thoughts are framed by the structural biases in our culture and society, we can been quite keen to jump in and say - I don't fully understand, but I hear your strongly held views and therefore I will stand with you.

I am currently in a difficult discussion with school about the low number girls in STEM subjects and whether we as a society and they as a school, should do more to support girls into careers in Maths, Physics and Computer Science (biology , chemistry and medicine related subjects seem to be doing quite well) and there is very little support for this - parents of boys don't see the issue, parents of girls see their girls as being more interested in English and Languages and school see that they are not doing any worse than the worldwide average, therefore no problem to fix.. so I am left, thinking... does it really matter.... no one else seems to think it is important - so does that mean I am wrong.

I find myself having the same dialogue around trans issues - so does it mean that I am wrong.... and then I come back here... to the echo chamber.... and read the thoughts and feelings of everyone on here... and feel at home again...

But yeah... does it mean that I am wrong...

Jordan Peterson and Helen Joyce look at why girls have higher levels of neuroticism than boys and men because of their role as mothers, and how for the same reason — staying part of the tribe in order to increase their children's chance of survival — they will do what they can (including lying and swearing black is white) in order not to be cast out.

I just assume it’s a fringe viewpoint. You adopt the views of those you spend time with.

But yeah... does it mean that I am wrong...

Many of us have asked that over the years. I do regularly. We reach out to trans people for a proper debate. I was desperate, for years, to find a coherent, rational trans advocate who could explain the thinking behind TWAW and so on. It never came because it doesn't exist. When someone as clear-thinking as Helen Joyce, who had no skin in the game and knew nothing about transgender ideology before she was asked to write a piece about it for the Economist, comes to pretty much the same conclusion as us, I think we can say we're not wrong.

It’s “I’m not like other girls” on steroids.

I see a lot of this.

the young working class women I know are not particularly benefitting from the progression in society more privileged young women are, so they don’t see themselves as oppressors, or whitecishetnormativeprivilege.

if you can see the benefits- the opening up of education and work places, the childcare options, if you’ve been listened to and your mum has been listened to it’s easy to see others as in greater need than you. And there’s a lot of messages out there saying transwomen (not so much transmen) are vulnerable, persecuted, denied opportunity etc if you have had the good fortune to see barriers removed for your generation, for your mum’s generation- the guilt of succeeding whilst other don’t is very easy to internalise and be played on.

At least that’s what so much of it comes across to me as. Girls who did well at school, got into good universities, achieved at work, there’s almost an air of apologising for that.

Those girls everyone assumed would get pregnant young, got average or less GCSEs, went onto low or not great wages, had too many experiences with toxic masculinity, left picking up the pieces left right and centre, they don’t have as much time for iD politics.

(of course these are generalisations and privilege doesn’t protect you from everything, but so many of the female TRAs give off a vibe that they feel guilty they’ve done well.)

“Mum is driving and her foot is off the brake, on the understanding that this is what child wants and child will never ever doubt that Mum wants the best for child.”

Have seen exactly the same on FB with the partner of a male friend from way back (how he really feels remains a mystery to me). It went way beyond cheerleading their child - she gave the kid literally no room to change their mind. All the other women cheering this obsessiveness on left me thinking ‘where the fuck is your critical thinking ability?’ Many just don’t seem to have it.

And “all of Lib fem is a lie” is a pretty accurate and pithy summation JustStopOilyPoshKids

"of course these are generalisations and privilege doesn’t protect you from everything, but so many of the female TRAs give off a vibe that they feel guilty they’ve done well.)"

Yes, this is exactly what I mean.

@DialSquare agree privilege is a key thing. it's interesting @Changemyname1000x that you say your friends who still think it is like the early 00s are comfortably off. I agree there's nothing to challenge their luxury beliefs in their little bubble. Probably not until their kids get a little older and the social contagion aspect of trans hits them through their kids.

Even then as PPs have noted there's a big chance they'll go full on TRA cheerleader. Possibly through fear/ guilt/ emotional blackmail ("better a trans kid than a dead kid") Or through their own munchy, attention seeking tendencies

@TheMarzipanDildo "It’s “I’m not like other girls” on steroids"

YES! I wrote above how the concept of 'cis' attempts to other the mainstream group. Allows you to redraw the lines of inclusion/ exclusion. Cis = basic unless you're making a big performance of your allyship. Look at how groups of straight women/ hen parties are ridiculed for their behaviour at drag brunches. Glancing at performers comments online is enough. You see it a lot from female drag artists too like there's a desperate need to separate themselves as cool girls from these embarrassing, drunken hags. Just so much misogyny.

I do think there is an element of people wanting to support the oppressed

The question though, is how have they been persuaded that Transpeople are the ultimate oppressed, while ignoring the vulnerable women who've been oppressed for millennia, and whose lot is getting worse, not better because of their actions.

That's where the absence of critical thinking, desire for social cohesion, fear of standing out from the crowd is coming into play.

@TheKeatingFive I think any critical thinking that is there is so mangled through the lens of intersectionalism the v basics are missed.

Add to that the point PPs have made re privilege- many of these young women/ girls will have done v well at school, see their mothers in good jobs, see plenty of successful women in the world and perhaps won't have encountered much direct sexism in their lives. They see their TW friends and woke bros espousing 'feminism', talking about me too, abortion etc and think they are part of the fight as well.

Something else that strikes me is that, at least when I was a teenager, we learned a fair bit one way or another about civil liberties.

I belonged to an Amnesty International group in school, which in those days was still focused on letter writing to support political prisoners. The democratic importance of freedom of belief and speech, the relation to political prisoners, was something we focused on.

I also remember learning in school about Jewish members of the ACLU defending KKK members over freedom of speech issues.

That stuff doesn't happen now in schools, and those groups are actually against those same liberties today. I just saw on my FB feed that a climate activist wants right wing publishers out of a book festival in Frankfurt because she doesn't feel "safe".

They don't do that at school now, they learn about social justice, CRT and DEI, and safe spaces for queer people and black and brown people.

@MangyInseam "The democratic importance of freedom of belief and speech"
agree with all what you say. I watched the Sinead O'Connor doc yesterday and amidst all the controversies and protests she was embroiled in, above all she was passionate about defending free speech.

Now we're at a point where free speech is equated to a dog whistle for the far right.

I think back to the lectures/ seminars I attended in philosophy and wonder how that is even possible now. We would explore every idea and seek to understand how/why that reasoning came about.

I think looking at the psychology of the whole trans debate is the most interesting part of it (instead of the constant arguments over subjects that deliberately exist because no one side can ever reach agreement).

I wouldn't say it's so much misogyny, but rather anger and hatred. And there is so much anger because if they were to realise what they've done to children (such as sterilisation and limb removal) due to ideologies, rather than medical fact, they wouldn't be able to live with themselves, and instead that anger is taken out on other people.

We talk about "tough love", but a lot of these activists are practising "harmful compassion", and so many people are going to be a crisis once they see the light.

I think it might also have something to do with the fact that, to the privileged female TRAs I know, genuinely vulnerable women are much less of a fashionable choice to support. Women from low socio-economic groups who support Brexit and like Boris Johnson and make uneducated comments about immigration? Ugh. Much easier to get twitter likes for littering your bio with rainbows and flags and applauding the stunning bravery of a man in lipstick talking sensitively in the Guardian about oppression and loneliness and becoming his authentic lesbian self.

So in that respect, social media has removed all the nuance and blurred out the complex historical and political dynamic. It's about soundbites and emojis and tribes, as well as the eternal quest to stay cool and relevant and their own prejudice - internalised from an ageist misogynist society - against middle aged women

Not so much 'I'm not like other girls' as 'I'm not a Karen'.

For me it started a few years leading up to when Trump was running while Obama was in office. Quite frankly conservatives online where very very mean and because at the time there were very few rules online about absolutely verbally assaulting someone they were very cocky and were happy to take advantage. As long as you weren’t throwing the N word around facebook and social media in general really wasn’t going to do much. They had the upper hand, they knew it and they were delighted to abuse it.

I cannot tell you the number of times I was called a precious snowflake, b*ch, slt, libtard (even though I did not yet identify as liberal), c**t, and my favourite feminazi.

Sorry conservatives, but you guys are not innocent either. Me being young, naive, a new voter and ready to “change the world” for the better and really sick of the controlling hateful attitude that many “christians” seem to display I was happy to join the liberals in the fray and defend trans people at the time. I mean if conservative men are calling, everyone who doesn’t quite fall nicely into their narrative, horrible names online they don’t really seem like the good guys now do they?

I think a lot of what was at play was how conservatives were very anti gay when gay people were fighting for their rights in the united states so from my perspective they were just upset that some person with a dick wanted to put on lipstick and a dress. So this was just them YET AGAIN being bigots who were mad that there were people who weren’t subscribing to following traditional gender roles.

At the time it seemed like what trans people were asking for wasn’t a lot. They wanted to be accepted for who they are and they wanted reasonable access to medical care and to be able to use the bathroom that for their chosen identity without harassment.

During those days at least as far as I am aware there were none of the crazy non-binary, trans unicorns, animals, star genders. It was pretty plain and straight forward. There were trans women and trans men. And there were very few of them at the time. But somewhere along the way the trans community just got greedy, arrogant and cocky just like the conservative men in the beginning. They weren’t satisfied anymore with their original demands. They started demanding more and more and more until you couldn’t even criticize them anymore. Just like the assholes who used to call me feminazi.

That’s when I stopped supporting them. That’s when I realized the movement had become a monster.

Anti-trans feminists have been accusing other women of misogyny for supporting their trans sisters since forever. Either that or saying "you must really be a man to support trans women."

These are the same "radical feminists", mainly middle class white women, many preaching political lesbianism even when partnered up with men (who were disparaged anyway as their 'Nigels'), who teamed up with anti-abortion Christians during the 70s and 80s to criminalise porn and other sex work. Using the State to do so because they have that power, being middle class and white. Now they're teaming up with Tories with the same thinking.

Haven't you got it yet? Most feminists and women in general support trans women as women.

Time to catch up with reality. Your radical feminism is actually incredibly conservative, and hopefully finally on the way out.

These are the same "radical feminists", mainly middle class white women, many preaching political lesbianism even when partnered up with men (who were disparaged anyway as their 'Nigels'), who teamed up with anti-abortion Christians during the 70s and 80s to criminalise porn and other sex work. Using the State to do so because they have that power, being middle class and white. Now they're teaming up with Tories with the same thinking.

Wow, talk about putting people in boxes and labelling them.

Seems a popular trait of the movement that promotes regressive stereotyping.

Lol @user1471465329 trans women are men, they’re not sisters

trans ppl in the UK have exactly the same human rights as everyone else. They just don’t have the right to force ppl to disbelieve the evidence of their eyes

Most of the women currently derided as ‘terfs’ (including those posting on this very forum) are Gen Xers, so your timeline is batshit.

Prostition is definitely shit for women and girls though, so you got that bit right.

How obtuse.

Is it helpful to label people 'anti women'? When I perceive them as acting against women and girls' rights and fail to understand why in order to support TQ+ politics (not people... not all TQ+ people agree with this by any means, you are solely supporting and advocating one rather extremist political view) you must subordinate female humans to male ones, you must strip females of equality and you must exclude some from any space so that males can have their preferred choice of all the spaces. I mean that logic baffles me. Honestly. To me it's just straight forward male supremacist: it values those born with penises far higher than the utter disregard and exclusion of those born without penises, while at the same time uttering the crazy statement 'sex doesn't exist'.

Or does throwing labels and rude names around end any possibility of a rational, adult conversation?

Most feminists and women in general support trans women as women.

You are saying this only because you've heard it. This has never been measured, voted on, in any way fairly ascertained, this is not based in any evidence. Almost every survey online radically states this is actually not true and while women care about the needs of TQ+ people and want them to have equality they do not agree with males in female only spaces.

Time to catch up with reality.

Oh mate.

Cass report. Mermaids. Females raped in prisons. Females without rape crisis. Females raped in hospital wards.

This isn't working for females in reality is it? I'm sorry if you have the belief that it doesn't matter, that females don't have the right to equality of care with male TQ+ people, but this is a niche belief.

Your radical feminism is actually incredibly conservative

No, love. Extremist totalitarian authoritarianism and gender ridigity such as the TQ+ political movement believes in is actually incredibly conservative, and incredibly similar to extremist religious movements. It's part of the whole if you swing to the extreme end left you meet the extreme end right and have a lot in common. Women here want equality of rights for females with males, they want everyone able to live any way they want but without this removing anyone elses rights, no hierarchies where some get and some give. And they want females to know they can be and do anything they want while still being female. You don't have to change and harm your body.

and hopefully finally on the way out.

Sorry, but the pendulum is starting to swing back and the more mess that comes out, the more and more people are going to realise how women here have been predicting and whistleblowing for years. The major failing was that the establishment bought into a lot of hot marketing and manipulative behaviours and didn't listen to basic common sense.

mainly middle class white women

Would you like to repeat your classist racism a bit more to make clear which women are de personed and should not be listened to in your world?

many preaching political lesbianism even when partnered up with men

And many preaching forcible conversion lesbianism where the person feeling entitled to sexual access to lesbians is a male and part of a group of males painting homosexuality as females unfairly denying them sex, which should entail conversion therapy or punishment including death.

Lesbians aren't political footballs thanks.

What is obtuse is the absolute vitriol and rejection that detransitions received from the trans and lgbt+ community when they confess that transitioning didn’t work out for them.

Watching this happen in real time with a friend to the point that it made them attempt suicide was what ultimately turned me off to TRA’s.

That and the insidious way they were gaslighted into contributing a treatment that was not working for them because they were told they had not made a mistake! This is all just internalized transphobia. You will feel better soon! Keep at it! So they listened until there was no return. Their body was destroyed in ways they cannot reverse. Absolutely diabolical!

You won’t be able to bury your heads in the sand to it for much longer. More and more of them are going to start coming out. If you keep rejecting them like that they are just going to turn to conservatives for support. You could have kept many of them on as supporters giving educated, lived constructive criticism. But instead they are turned around as if they are lepers.

Follow the money. It might have once been about civil rights… but it’s definitely not about that anymore…

I think it’s because some young women haven’t really realised how shit stuff is for women. Also things like domestic violence, rape centres etc are not particularly glamorous, they are the ugly end of life. In the podcast (thanks for that found it interesting) Joyce points out that many younger women despise older women in a way young men don’t despise older men. They don’t want to become old and “useless” - probably because society does doesn’t treat men like that, you can be a silver fox etc.

I wonder if there is a similar process of distancing yourself from the “kind of women” that “kind of thing” happens to. It’s painful, difficult to face and ugly. Activism for “oppressed minorities” is glamorous, it’s an easy win you are fighting for a just cause at little real cost to yourself. You aren’t offering to raise money to keep a crisis centre open or listening to a woman who has become stuck in a cycle of abusive relationships.