Struggling with the misogyny of female TRAs

[TheirEminence]

There is something I don’t understand and I hope MN can help. What is the general psychological profile of female people (trans-masculine, non-binary, women identify as ‘cis’) who are rabid TRAs? Not just going along with things ‘to be kind’ but the true believers with total ideological commitment?

I know we discuss TW a lot on this forum and what we perceive as their male entitlement and often complete lack of understanding for the female condition but what drives female TRAs? There is a strong desire to punish, and a taste for persecution and hunting for apostates, sometimes fairly obvious self-promotion. Sometimes it seems to be strong investment in one’s own or a close relative’s transition.

What is the psychology of this, is it specific to female people - or is this a daft question?

I think there will be different motives at work with different women

I think naivety/lack of life experience explains some- my adult DCs were raised to be kind and accepting (to a fault, obviously) and have escaped some of the worst aspects of the patriarchy- they also identify as counter cultural in a broad sense, so this issue is just part of that.

I think with older women who are mothers to gender confused children- it can simply be desperation to make their child happy (and an uncritical approach to what that might be) Also, for some women I have observed that child rearing becomes a project- and this becomes a project which as a bonus brings them lots of praise and attention.

Then I think there are professional women who either daren't challenge this madness and so collude or see a chance for personal advancement.

Probably more too, these are what first occur to me.

I agree with the lack of critical thinking too.

But paradoxically I also feel that (this is not confined to women) living in a post industrial consumerist society means most people are very far removed from material reality. The truth that we are animals and ultimately dependent on the sun or everything is not obvious to most people. Likewise the truth that we are sexually dimorphic mammals may seem like an irrelevant technicality.
Although how you can remain ignorant of that whilst also gestating and birthing a human I have no idea.

I think the best way to examine this is to consider your own youth and peer groups. I’m in my 30s but I remember being a teen and I had a lot of self-esteem issues. I also had one hell of a misogynist mother and suffered sexual abuse. The whole mix didn’t make me a very nice teen - I’ll be honest and say that I usually resorted in directing that self loathing and jealousy at other girls and woman. Not the outright shouting abuse like the TRA activists but a lot of gossipy behaviour and outright bitching about others.

I wonder if you add on the emboldenment of echo chambers online that tell you your behaviour is actually reasonable and righteous, I’d imagine it’s easy to slip in to pure aggression at others in a sort of puritanical manner.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this:

It's a conversation between Jordan Peterson and Helen Joyce. I initially found him very annoying and difficult to listen to, but as it progressed he and Helen talked about female psychology and why women behave as they do and why they feel/ experience things differently. It included some reflections on why some women have been so quick and tenacious in adopting and defending gender ideology and transwomen. I can't sum it up — don't really have the language — but it was a light-bulb moment for me and for other women on the original thread.

I suspect some of it is down to sheer lack of education. They don't know enough British social history to understand how hard-won (and how recent) female rights and freedoms are.

The lack of life experience and the emotive and usually protective connection with a TQ+ friend is often illustrated in the total obliviousness and quite cruel dismissal of female need.

It isn't balanced out with reference to a friend who is from a minority faith or culture and emotional connection with how loss of female only spaces and provisions affect her; there's no personal experience of women in refuges, escaping DV/DA, women with disabilities, obviously as yet no experience of how the female body starts to show you how your high ideals get lost behind the harsh facts of biology as you deal with pregnancy, birth, post birth injuries, raising a child and how unequally women are impacted, the female specific illnesses and chronic illnesses, peri and actual menopause (the non fetishised version)....

It does baffle me though that any woman who is a MNetter and has thoroughly read around the boards manages to stay naiive to the reality of other women's lives and troubles, and in some cases to just not care about them while passionately caring about protecting and shielding men.

Thanks, everyone, for these thoughtful responses. A lot of food for thought. Mangyinseam, I think you’re right, it’s too easy to just label this behaviour ‘misogyny’, and from what I have observed, female TRAs do tend to have self esteem issues. I am still disturbed by the absolute relish that some of them show when destroying another woman’s reputation and livelihood.

• Lack of critical thinking
• Path of least resistance
• Political tribalism
• Social contagion
• Guardian et al propaganda
• In-group and out-group dynamics
• Fear/chilling effect
• Lack of time/interest
• Homophobia
• Indoctrination in schools (younger ones, obviously)

Thinking back to my views... I didn't understand the issues, and thought twaw was harmless (and no one meant it literally), live and let live etc.

When I was at uni I remember conversations with peers about prostitution, and being told it was a legitimate choic blah blah blah. I hadn't thought much about it but remember instinctively thinking this was wrong, but was unable to articulate why. I lacked confidence, and am way too agreeable and would have (at that point) sooner have eaten an onion like an apple than publicly disagree on a purportedly "progressive" stance with people I assumed were wiser than I.

Sorry to be a bore, but do watch the Jordan Peterson/ Helen Joyce piece. It goes deeply into the psychology in a way nothing I've heard discussed before.

I think it's very easy to see Antifa or equivalent standing up against Neo-Nazis or supporting BLM protests, thinking they're the good guys and then seeing them standing up to transphobes, right wing nut jobs and "terfs" and thinking they're still the good guys. Until Lia Thomas and my fundamental unease about a was-just-a-male person breaking women's sporting records, I pretty much felt the same. TWAW pretty much equalled live and let live. This forum is my rabbit hole!

There's a real buzz to feeling like you're open minded and modern and accepting. But you can't go around telling people of every minority group how much you love and support them because it would be patronizing and they just want to get on with their lives. Trans people however thrive on being validated so it is a perfect way to display your goodness. - pronouns are a very obvious way in which the ordinary cis heteronormative boring person can fly the flag of demonstrable coolness, as is welcoming males into female toilets. It's all done with a view to who notices the amazing act of acceptance. This is generally coupled with a vague be kind and there's a way we can work it out for everyone and JKR must have said something pretty vile - though I'm not sure what it is... But best not think too deeply because any contradictions are too uncomfortable to face and suddenly everyone would think you're evil and right-wing so best to double down.

Lack of critical thinking
Path of least resistance
Political tribalism
Social contagion
Guardian et al propaganda
In-group and out-group dynamics
Fear/chilling effect
Lack of time/interest
Homophobia
Indoctrination in schools (younger ones, obviously)

Excellent list to which I would add

Narcissism
Power tripping
Fabricated or induced illness which I believe is the modern name for Munchhausen by Proxy
Filling a void left by the decline of religion

Regarding the last point I think some people are just more religiously inclined than others and there are fewer outlets for that now, Christianity is so unfashionable and it isn’t easy to pick up any of the other mainstream religions really if you’re from a non religious background/community. There is no ethical framework in gender identity ideology which might encourage any traditional virtues instead it encourages all the vices and the dehumanisation of non-believers. It seems to nurture the worst aspects of its believers personalities.

the Peterson/Joyce interview was excellent and well worth a watch or listen in my opinion. Thanks pattihews

I agree with MangyInseam.

Also I can see the feminist perspective that women who have found their bodies/physiology either a burden, or a reason for other people to oppress them, feel solidarity with anyone who reports the same thing. To me it quickly becomes defining women as 'anyone who experiences violence from men' which doesn't work for me as it doesn't explore the reasons for any of it, but I see where that viewpoint comes from.

Lib fem from the 90s onwards has been v much have your cake and eat it.. Hedonism = empowerment. Pursuing your own desires as a performance of rebellion. All that Butler BS. Cmon its seductive! Better than doing difficult work unpacking your trauma and living the hopelessness of genuine attempts of activism. Or really challenge the existential horror of patriarchy on micro/macro level.

I grew up in this culture. From riot grrrl to gay clubs to fet scene. I work in the arts. Took a lot of drugs and had a fantastic time.

Until a few of years back I was full on TWAW. Like PPs have said there's a lot of political tribalism. Forced teaming of causes. Championing the underdogs/ outsiders. Which in my experience was like an extension of my friends. The beautiful freaks and weirdos. Who wouldn't hurt me and posed no threat. Unlike rapey, towny ned blokes. My gay male drag queen mates and TW were safe. They were my people.

I think what you're seeing with 'cis' is the extrapolation of that thinking en masse. Specially in respect to feminism. Its easier/ more palatable if you can 'other' men. Cherry pick a good class and demonise plain old unenlightened cis blokes as the agents of patriarchy. Basing a view of TW as your sisters on the few folk you know and feel safe with. Giving some het woke bros a free pass too. Specially if you want to fuck them. Typical us/them counter culture thinking. But ultimately is a load of bollocks. Of course it is.

I eventually woke up to that. Realised I had leaned into the quagmire.

But a few years back say the TW in toilet issue.. I would not have had a problem with it cos my frame of reference was mixed loos in queer spaces= absolutely fine.

One of the penny drop moments for me was the ick I was feeling at the obvious AGPs on the kink scene. I felt very different around and towards these people than my tribe on the queer scene. Unpicking that the trans umbrella / self ID is as much about cross dressers; typically older, straight fellas with a fetishised vision of 'woman' does ultimately erode any meaningful distinction between the sexes. And then all the cards come crashing down.

All of lib fem is a lie

Tribalism. It both pressures and motivates people to do whatever they can to stay in the group, so much where history shows many insidious examples of turning a blind eye to atrocities because people don't want to rock the boat and be shunned.

I think some women are manipulated into it - better to transition than a dead son/daughter and then feel they can't turn back. I do wonder how many of them truly believe, I saw a picture of Jamie Lee Curtis recently with her trans daughter and her daughter, JLC looked distinctly uncomfortable, yet she talks the talk.

There have always been women who are all about the men though, favouritising their sons, doubting sexual abuse stories in the media, but what about the menz etc (my mum can be a bit like this).

I also think even for many who are, they just have other thigs going on in their lives so it's not been something they have focused on. Usually they don't know much about any of the crazy stuff or wilder claims.

I have a friend like this, very thoughtful, but just engaged elsewhere, and it was only when a brother transitioned she began to think about it. And now it's difficult, she's skeptical but they are a close family. I've talked with her a bit but I am wary of being too forthcoming about things like AGP because it puts her in a difficult position in her family life.

A few years ago I came across a comic online that talked about something called the backfire effect—the way people will double down, angrily and sometimes violently, when their core beliefs are challenged. Link below if anyone’s interested (if it doesn’t work for some reason the comic is called “You’re not going to believe what I’m about to tell you” by the Oatmeal).

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

I was thinking about it the other day, especially with regards to trans activism as so many activists and rabid supporters seem complete unable to tolerate even the slightest whiff of dissent. I don’t know if the theory holds any weight (not a psychologist, never looked into it any deeper than to think ‘ah, yes, that sounds familiar’) but TRA’s like a pretty good argument for it.

Its interesting that so many Gen X women saw through this very quickly and are most of the women pushing back, leading groups, writing books, crowdsourcing lawsuits and willing to take to the streets.

As a Gen Xer myself I do think that a lot of ideas we had presented to us as teens through various sources, mothers, teachers, teen magazines, music, feminists, was that women and men can wear what we want and have whatever interest we want. There was a big pushback against sex stereotyping, we had a lot of androgynous pop stars, or women that were happy to have a creative, independent, fearless, moody image such as Annie Lennox, Siouxsie Sioux, Toyah Wilcox, Chrissie Hyde, Sade, Debbie Harry, Alison Moyet, Grace Jones, plus big R & B names and moving into the 1990s lots of girl rappers and Hip Hop artists Queen Latifah, Salt n Pepper, TLC, Lauren Hill, Missy Elliot etc

We liked to be women, we found a way to celebrate being women that could be as unconventional as we wanted.

The current Gender Ideology is literally a 180 degree turn from where we thought women's rights and self understanding was. Its regressive, misogynistic and based on simplistic stereotypes.

And due to lack of knowledge of the past and the gender-bending of the 70s/80s/90s young Zoomer girls & women (14-25) are encouraged to see older women as rigid and unaware. Without knowing the history of popular culture, being constantly distracted by Social Media, which moves so fast from one topic to the next, its doesn't encourage critical hinking. Of course the normal rebellion against your parents generation also plays in.

Let's not forget women's voices have been aggressively silenced, so it can be a struggle to have them hear another POV.

@JustStopOilyPoshKids I found your op really resonated with me. That was my 20s/30s. Since then I've become relatively speaking quite conventional (although for most 'school mums' not enough!). A lot of my friends are still viewing the current debate through that lens (like it's 2003) but in all honesty they're also living quite comfortably off and conventional lives now too. Added to this I notice gay men in their 30s are quite into this issue but again I think if they're regularly out and about on the scene then can't see a problem and just old enough to remember some oppression (certainly at school). They don't have children and are generally quite misogynistic (it took me many years to see that in the gay scene).
I didn't get this issue either until I looked at the impact on those I work with (I work in the sector supporting vulnerable women). And then my teens. My teen daughter has already encountered a bearded 'man' in the ladies toilets and it scared her but thankfully she had the language to tell me about it.

There's many many studies on how ideas gain traction and group think (I want to say covid here because there were clear examples in the recent pandemic).
I have to always be aware of how we are being carried along and challenge what i think. Even within this debate. I'm well aware that not everyone does this. Most people believe what the media tells them at face value. I have an Autistic child so I am always at pains to explain and see things in a way I can explain to them and they're also very susceptible to being 'conned'. But when things are explained are very rational too which can be insightful.
Being able to say 'I thought this.. but i now know that I'm wrong' is a skill many people could do to learn!

I think 10 years max a lot of this will have moved on. Maybe even 5. Sadly we are then going to have a horrible mop up to deal with.

@Witchofthekitchen that link is fantastic.

I think privilege plays a part too. Everyone I know from my working class background thinks this ideology is bollocks. They're too clued up on life to be taken in by it. They know what some people are capable of given a chance.

@DialSquare couldn't agree more!

I’m just speculating, but there’s loads of evidence that women are at the forefront of societal trends. In linguistics, for example, women are the ones who change language and dialects. On the positive side of things it means that women are trend setters. But the negative is it makes women susceptible to social contagion : most cases of public hysteria (like uncontrollable tics, sleeping beauty syndrome, etc) are suffered by women.

So if women in general set societal trends it’s no surprise they have leapt onto the trans thing with such fervour. If anyone was going to bring postmodernism to the masses it was going to be women.