Page 3 | School LGBTQ+ staff survey

BlackAlys · 2022-10-25T21:48:19+00:00

The secondary school I work in has had a huge drive towards LGBTQ+ matters for about 2 years now. We have rainbows and flags everywhere, our PSE lessons are heavily weighed towards trans issues and now, a staff survey has arrived asking us how comfortable we are with challenging homophobic and transphobic behaviour. It also asks whether we understand what deadnaming is and whether we feel confident to address the issue with pupils, would we quietly deal with it or would we report pupils officially on the school system. Its final 2 questions are about our awareness of the term cisgender and assesses our confidence to discuss these terms with pupils. I'm really unhappy with the heavy emphasis on this whole issue. I'd have no problem tackling homophobic/transphobic behaviour but I see cis and cisgender as offensive, made up terms that are slowly being shoe-horned into normality. There isn't a space to comment neither so my only option is to not fill it in. I am anticipating the large (and growing) group of LGBTQ+pupils to want more PSE lessons on trans issues. Id like to be able to say my piece succinctly and to the point but I'm lost for words.

Blablablaaaaa · 30/10/2022 06:57

MamaSharkington · 30/10/2022 06:46

I think you can also shift the focus of your concern in your appeals, and place them on the back foot a little. Remember you are only asking for a non-hostile environment for your philosophical beliefs, which is something that should be protected by law.

Be explicitly helpful to management, from your senior, experienced position. So, point out that the survey isn't anonymous. Point out that the survey, as constructed, is hostile to anyone with gender critical views. Such views are protected under the Equalities Act (cite recent case law). Point out that this is leaving the school open to being accused of creating a hostile environment in an Employment Tribunal. Point out a vaguer concern that there is a risk of the balance of consideratuon of different protected characteristics being skewed within the school more widely and that they are leaving themselves open in other ways (this would, i think depend on the actual characteristics of your school population). You can suggest ways to improve this specific survey by making it truly anonymous, allowing free text boxes, giving the option not to answer questions disagreed with philosophically due to the terms used - I would specifically used the term philosophically or belief as this is the language of the Equalities Act).

You could also point to the new guidance, but this is, I think, a separate point and I would leave it until the Guidance actually comes out.

If they aren't stupid, this will scare the shit out of them that you are gunning for an Employment Tribunal. It should light a fire under their asses. Whilst you are being polite and respectful, and supportive of the school as corporate entity. Even if you don't claim those beliefs directly, it will be viewed as outing as GC and you need to be prepared for that. But from what I can see you are ready to do that.

spot on

ZooMount · 30/10/2022 07:38

grey12 · 30/10/2022 06:25

WOW OP!

Out of all of that you have an issue with "cisgender" 🤦🏻‍♀️

Ok, latin lesson: trans means going across: transatlantic, transgender..... Cis is the opposite prefix, it means staying in the same place

You don't need to explain what 'cis' means. We understand where this term comes from. We just don't believe that you can change sex and as female/women should refer to sex there is absolutely no need to refer to a female as cis anything. Women/female alone is fine thank you very much. I don't believe I can turn into a man.

DeadDonkey · 30/10/2022 07:47

grey12 · 30/10/2022 06:25

WOW OP!

Out of all of that you have an issue with "cisgender" 🤦🏻‍♀️

Ok, latin lesson: trans means going across: transatlantic, transgender..... Cis is the opposite prefix, it means staying in the same place

I don’t need the prefix ‘cis’ to know I’m a woman. I also don’t need it explaining to me - I was using Cis/Trans in degree level chemistry 25 years ago.

FrancescaContini · 30/10/2022 07:50

BlackAlys · 29/10/2022 15:43

We've had patterns of this for about 5 years but always females socially transing to trans boys. They mostly revert back. It's no surprise that all girls involved are either autistic or on our watch list (life changing early experiences and suffering significant trauma). This past year however, we have high numbers (double figures) of teenage boys identifying as transgirls or non-binary. They seem to be gathering momentum. 2 have been very vocal on the school's stance on residential trips (single sex room sharing) and something about a few new staff members makes me uneasy - they are quite vocal about inclusion rights.

Show quote history

Definitely keep an eye on colleagues who make you feel “queasy”. We have a gut instinct for a reason.

grey12 · 30/10/2022 09:35

@DeadDonkey are you OP?

I honestly I don't get the issue with saying "cis" 🤷🏻‍♀️ Maybe there is no real need in most situations but opposing it so strongly? Why?.... it's just language no1. And when saying that "transwomen are women", I do think there is indeed a need to define ciswomen, since "biological women" doesn't seem to be PC anymore 🤦🏻‍♀️

ValancyRedfern · 30/10/2022 09:41

I object to 'cis' because it suggests I identify as a woman, which I don't. It reframes sex as an identity and is therefore a political statement.

TheClogLady · 30/10/2022 09:45

grey12 · 30/10/2022 09:35

@DeadDonkey are you OP?

I honestly I don't get the issue with saying "cis" 🤷🏻‍♀️ Maybe there is no real need in most situations but opposing it so strongly? Why?.... it's just language no1. And when saying that "transwomen are women", I do think there is indeed a need to define ciswomen, since "biological women" doesn't seem to be PC anymore 🤦🏻‍♀️

The problem is that it assigns a gender identity to everyone and many of us don’t have a gender identity. I’m a gender identity atheist and I don’t want a gender identity assigned to my child.

for OP, lots of us parents are pushing back on this, but it often seems to end up in the lap of staff like your middle management teacher who won’t pass it on any further.

DeadDonkey · 30/10/2022 10:12

grey12 · 30/10/2022 09:35

@DeadDonkey are you OP?

I honestly I don't get the issue with saying "cis" 🤷🏻‍♀️ Maybe there is no real need in most situations but opposing it so strongly? Why?.... it's just language no1. And when saying that "transwomen are women", I do think there is indeed a need to define ciswomen, since "biological women" doesn't seem to be PC anymore 🤦🏻‍♀️

No I'm not the OP - what made you think that? ValancyRedfern and TheClogLady have answered perfectly.

I don't believe that Transwomen are Women - they are Transwomen (biological Man) and I am a Women (biological) and require no further definition. Like many others I do not subscribe to Gender Identity as a concept - The use of 'Cis' reduces me to a sub-set of my own sex which I find insulting.

FrippEnos · 30/10/2022 10:57

grey12 · 30/10/2022 06:25

WOW OP!

Out of all of that you have an issue with "cisgender" 🤦🏻‍♀️

Ok, latin lesson: trans means going across: transatlantic, transgender..... Cis is the opposite prefix, it means staying in the same place

To use your sides language to start with
It is mis-gendering somebody and is therefore literal violence

To use other points
I do not identify as a gender, see your sides point above.

I do not conform to a stereotype as per those that push the gender ideology.
I am not a subset of my sex.
Sex is not a spectrum.

but finally
If you want me to show your side the respect of using pronouns and how you identify, Then show me the respect of what I believe in.

And I am not going to fully support a side that recommends chest binders and hormone treatments claiming that they do no long term harm.

grey12 · 30/10/2022 12:52

@FrippEnos YOU don't conform but why can't I?! 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think the concept of gender is silly..... and we should accept the biological differences between the sexes and not invent new ones like emotions, colour preferences, car preferences, jobs, wtv. But I live in this society and abide by its regulations and communication systems and those define me personally as cisfemale

TheClogLady · 30/10/2022 12:57

grey12 · 30/10/2022 12:52

@FrippEnos YOU don't conform but why can't I?! 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think the concept of gender is silly..... and we should accept the biological differences between the sexes and not invent new ones like emotions, colour preferences, car preferences, jobs, wtv. But I live in this society and abide by its regulations and communication systems and those define me personally as cisfemale

That’s fine. Your call.

it’s like believing in a religion. Your belief that you have a soul doesn’t mean I have a soul and you can’t make me say I have one.

There is no such thing as a transfemale and a cisfemale, btw.
Female refers to reproductive function and applies to humans animals and even plants. You can’t identify your way into and out of reproductive function, that’s utter batshittery.

Batshittery that other humans are entitled to believe in (just as they are entitled to believe the world is flat) but I will not have my children taught batshittery at school.

grey12 · 30/10/2022 13:07

Wait dudes!!! We're on the same side 🤨

I wanna shove all these new ideas in a box and burn them! And you seem to agree 🤷🏻‍♀️ I like saying cis just as a separation from the mess..... for example, I find gender fluidity super sexist, even though it likes to paint itself the opposite way

TheClogLady · 30/10/2022 13:09

So why use the language that justifies the sexism?

There is no such thing as a transwoman and a ciswoman because women are adult human females, not humans of either sex with inner womanly gender feelings.

Original poster

BlackAlys · 30/10/2022 13:11

grey12 · 30/10/2022 06:32

In case that was unclear:

I'm cis: I was born a woman, with XX cromossomes and.everything that it brings with it. And I am still a woman, I'm not a man. i dress like a woman, I look like a woman, I use she/her probouns. I stayed on the same side. I didn't jump across to being a man

Where to start!

OP posts:

Leafstamp · 30/10/2022 13:13

To the OP, this is such a depressing thread for parents like me to read. I'm bookmarking to read properly in a bit and I might DM if you if that's ok?

FrippEnos · 30/10/2022 13:17

grey12 · 30/10/2022 12:52

@FrippEnos YOU don't conform but why can't I?! 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think the concept of gender is silly..... and we should accept the biological differences between the sexes and not invent new ones like emotions, colour preferences, car preferences, jobs, wtv. But I live in this society and abide by its regulations and communication systems and those define me personally as cisfemale

Who said that you can't conform?

I believe that most of society is against this new drive of gender conformity and that it is a very vocal minority that is pushing this agenda.

There is currently no consensus about this, it is very much still in the air.

But my point is simpler than that, if you and others expect others to refer to you as cis and by whatever pronouns you want (he/him she/her they/them Xe/Xur ghost/ghostself demon/demonself) then the very basic thing that you should be doing is returning the good manners to others and refer to them how they wish to be addressed.

Original poster

BlackAlys · 30/10/2022 13:18

@Leafstamp that's absolutely fine. Despite what another poster here thinks, I am but one of many women who see the bigger issue at large here and are trying to oppose it. I'm suspicious of anyone that tries to minimise any aspect of this movement.

OP posts:

MagpiePi · 30/10/2022 13:19

sashh · 26/10/2022 08:37

How the hell an you teach Spanish and French where there are gendered nouns if you can't say things are male or female?

You ask each noun-owner how they identify?
🙄

TheClogLady · 30/10/2022 13:21

I’ve got short hair, loads of tattoos and am wearing an ancient paint of paint splattered joggers purchased from the menswear section (because: pockets!) I’ve had 4 pregnancies, 2 resulting in live births and have been married three times (to 3 different heterosexual men).

I’m a woman. An adult human female. I’m not a cis anything because I don’t believe that sex or gender is a feeling inside a person’s head.

Sex is reproductive function and gender is sex stereotypes that are used to keep women (and men) in a box. Sometimes I play around with the box (I love high heels, especially clog high heels, hence the user name) but I recognise the box as a box.

It’s got four walls and it exists to keep us contained and compliant.

I will not have my children taught that the only way out of the pink box is to climb into the blue box. I’d like to smash the box to pieces but that’s a big job, so for now, rejecting the box is gonna have to do.

Original poster

BlackAlys · 30/10/2022 13:23

MamaSharkington · 30/10/2022 06:46

I think you can also shift the focus of your concern in your appeals, and place them on the back foot a little. Remember you are only asking for a non-hostile environment for your philosophical beliefs, which is something that should be protected by law.

Be explicitly helpful to management, from your senior, experienced position. So, point out that the survey isn't anonymous. Point out that the survey, as constructed, is hostile to anyone with gender critical views. Such views are protected under the Equalities Act (cite recent case law). Point out that this is leaving the school open to being accused of creating a hostile environment in an Employment Tribunal. Point out a vaguer concern that there is a risk of the balance of consideratuon of different protected characteristics being skewed within the school more widely and that they are leaving themselves open in other ways (this would, i think depend on the actual characteristics of your school population). You can suggest ways to improve this specific survey by making it truly anonymous, allowing free text boxes, giving the option not to answer questions disagreed with philosophically due to the terms used - I would specifically used the term philosophically or belief as this is the language of the Equalities Act).

You could also point to the new guidance, but this is, I think, a separate point and I would leave it until the Guidance actually comes out.

If they aren't stupid, this will scare the shit out of them that you are gunning for an Employment Tribunal. It should light a fire under their asses. Whilst you are being polite and respectful, and supportive of the school as corporate entity. Even if you don't claim those beliefs directly, it will be viewed as outing as GC and you need to be prepared for that. But from what I can see you are ready to do that.

Thank you.
I'm finding all your posts, this in particular, incredibly helpful and reassuring.

I have grounded people on my SMT who agree with me. Someone, somewhere in the staff, is being very pushy about this. But I will continue to challenge it.

I have other concerns - I run a yearly trip in my field and 2 transgirls are asking for sharing rooms with their female friends. Ive been so far met with sullen stares when Ive said that sleeping areas are single sexed.

There are so many issues here to juggle. I'm grateful to you all for your support and advice.

OP posts:

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/10/2022 13:24

Don't think anyone's linked this BlackAlys from Sex Matters and Transgender Trend? It's good legal advice for schools that balances the legal rights and needs of all pupils with safeguarding at the heart of this:

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/schools-guidance/

Original poster

BlackAlys · 30/10/2022 13:26

@MagpiePi simple enough when discussing people, not so simple when having to factor in other inanimate nouns. There's another language in the school that's refused to comply on the grounds that the language has to consider the language gender of every noun in all sentence.

OP posts:

Original poster

BlackAlys · 30/10/2022 13:27

Plus, in a 50 minute oracy lesson with 34 class kids, asking each one their pronoun is a fucking momentous drain on time

OP posts:

TheClogLady · 30/10/2022 13:31

BlackAlys · 30/10/2022 13:27

Plus, in a 50 minute oracy lesson with 34 class kids, asking each one their pronoun is a fucking momentous drain on time

And if you forget any of them, you then end up with even more time wasted as complaints are voiced!

source: the 9 varieties of trans identifying teen currently making popcorn in my kitchen 😬

FrippEnos · 30/10/2022 13:34

Its weird, when I started teaching, part of the job was to get children/teenagers to realise that they should not be constrained by the stereotypes pushed on to them by others,
Girls could do science, Boys could do textiles.
Girls could be engineers and boys could be nurses.

Now it seems to be that in order to do something you have to conform to the correct gender.