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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says

60 replies

ResisterRex · 22/10/2022 07:41

Article in the Mail on views and experiences of GIDS from a former psychiatrist who worked there until 2012. Referrals only increased after that time, as is documented.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11342541/Dr-Az-Hakeem-says-parents-claimed-kids-trans-NHS-Tavistock-transing-factory-clinic.html

"Parents of children as young as three were fabricating stories that their toddlers were transgender, a former psychiatrist at the Tavistock child gender clinic claims.

Dr Az Hakeem worked at the controversial NHS clinic for 12 years until 2012 and said he expressed concerns the procedures followed by staff 'were mad', describing Tavistock as a 'transing factory'."

OP posts:
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ResisterRex · 22/10/2022 12:04

@Datun this is from December 2018(!)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6450485/Trans-activists-send-free-breast-binders-13-year-olds.html

OP posts:
SudocremOnEverything · 22/10/2022 12:05

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 12:02

One of the psychologists at the Tavistock helped run a tantra group in their leisure time, where they described themselves as a "gender queer elf and political pervert".

I'm using they/their/themselves here as those are the pronouns they prefer. I think the person is a female transitioner, if it matters.

It’s amazing no one in the organisation seems to ponder the possibility of conflicts of interest. Isn’t it?

SudocremOnEverything · 22/10/2022 12:06

You also have to wonder at the supervision processes that aren’t picking this stuff up.

lunar1 · 22/10/2022 12:11

How many threads a week do we get with posters devastated and the awful news that they are having a boy, and how many people jump on to validate the feeling.

When you are a parent your child's needs come first, someone with a significant desire for one sex over the other is having a child for themselves and not for the person they are bringing into the world. We shouldn't be encouraging that this is ok.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 12:21

SudocremOnEverything · 22/10/2022 12:05

It’s amazing no one in the organisation seems to ponder the possibility of conflicts of interest. Isn’t it?

I've obscured certain identifying bits of information. The impression I got from this and other blog excerpts is of a person who believes they have found a personal health solution in transitioning and who is evangelical about that being the solution for other younger females experiencing distress.

To an extent, that's usual human behaviour. Whatever the issue (plumbing, toothache, how to plant a north-facing garden, chronic knee-pain), when people do find something that works for them, they can find it very difficult to accept that it's not a universal solution.

But this is an NHS clinic, not an informal chat at the bus-stop, and inability to distance oneself from other people's apparently similar struggles is far more serious in impact. Someone more senior should have been stepping in here. But I think that by that time the Tavistock didn't have a workplace culture that permitted that. It would have been "cisplaining" to a trans employee or something.

Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says
Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says
Igmum · 22/10/2022 12:25

Absolutely agree Purgatory. And with some of the Mermaids activists who have done that to their children I think there's an added impetus that they HAVE to be right. Imagine the regret you'd feel as a parent if you arranged for your own child to be medically sterilised and you were wrong.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 12:31

This was their profile on the GIDS page.

profile

Tell us about your role?

I have worked at GIDS since October 2015. I initially came here as a trainee and became a qualified member of the team in October 2016. The main part of my job as a psychologist is to meet with families and young people who attend the service. In addition to this I liaise with other professionals involved with families, do some teaching/training and also some research.

What are your special interests within the work you do?

I have a particular interest in the topic of gender diversity, e.g. non binary/genderfluid/genderqueer/agender identities. Relatedly, I am also interested in sexual and relationship diversity- moving away from models of sexuality that are purely based on orientation (e.g. heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual) and thinking about sexuality more broadly.

What interested you about working in GIDS?

I find the topic of gender fascinating and it is something we all have a relationship regardless of how we identify. I feel that I can learn a lot about this topic from the young people who attend the service.

What advice would you have to someone coming to their first appointment with you?

We are aware that a first appointment can often be quite anxiety provoking for young people and families and we want to try and reduce these feelings if we can. So let us know if there are things we can do to make the sessions feel easier. I think it can sometimes feel that there is a lot to cover in the time that we have, so it can sometimes be useful to come with a list of questions or topics you want to cover and also have an idea about which are the most important.

GIDS is a national service so young people and families come from all over England and Wales, some of whom are coming to London for their first time. London is an amazing place with so much to choose from and there are lots of free exhibitions and activities to do while you are here for the day. One place in London I really like is Camden. If you are into any aspect of ‘alternative’ culture I would really recommend exploring Camden market, taking a walk along the high street and visiting some of the interesting stores.

Which person do you most admire?

One person I really admire is Meg-John Barker. They are a non-binary writer, activist, researcher and therapist. I really like the way they write about some very complicated topics and they write about these in a really accessible way, including a comic book about Queer Theory.

What is your favourite book?

I tend to read a lot more non-fiction books rather than story books. Though I did recently read a book called ‘Normal’ which is about trans young people. It was so good I read it in three days and would definitely recommend it! I also love Harry Potter and have all of the talking books. I went to the Warner Brother Studios Tour recently, though Butter Beer is a lot sweeter than I imagined it would be!

What is your favourite music genre?

There isn’t one genre of music that I like more than others. When I was a teenager indie music was my passion, with The Stereophonics being particular favourites. Now I tend to listen to a range of music, at the moment I am enjoying Frank Turner, I also listen to some breakbeat, some funk, and also musicals.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/10/2022 12:53

That's grim PurgatoryOfPotholes. It's like reading a personal statement from a 14 year old, not a qualified psychologist working with children with complex mental health issues.

TheClogLady · 22/10/2022 12:56

GIDS has been taking referrals from teachers, youth workers etc for years.

some GPs are definitely sensible about not referring very young children but parents and activists and adult transitioned people are very angry about GPs that don’t unquestionably refer on request.

These screenshots are from Reddit.

Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says
Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says
Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says
Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says
TheClogLady · 22/10/2022 13:01

Screenshot from
here re non GP referrals: healthtalk.org/Experiences-of-parents-and-carers-of-young-trans-and-gender-diverse-people/Parents-and-carers-experiences-of-their-child-getting-referred-to-the-Gender-Identity-Developm

The linked project is fascinating- lots of on camera interviews with parents who are on the affirmation track. One mother outright says her primary school aged child (male sex, socially transitioned to a ‘girl’ identity) experiences no bodily distress at all but wants puberty blockers prescribed anyway.

Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says
TheClogLady · 22/10/2022 13:05

Clarification, the mother wants puberty blockers prescribed despite the child showing no signs of bodily distress.

suninthefog · 22/10/2022 13:15

lunar1 · 22/10/2022 12:11

How many threads a week do we get with posters devastated and the awful news that they are having a boy, and how many people jump on to validate the feeling.

When you are a parent your child's needs come first, someone with a significant desire for one sex over the other is having a child for themselves and not for the person they are bringing into the world. We shouldn't be encouraging that this is ok.

That's not totally fair. I had gender disappointment when I was told I was having a son. I've had very negative experiences with men and male siblings.

It was hard to for me at that point, 12 weeks pregnant separate these complex feelings. Sometimes we as women are told that the only child worth having is a daughter as a son will leave you. I saw that happen over and over in my family over the years. I had internalised this sentiment completely. Having other mothers tell me this isn't ok would have only made me feel worse than I already felt.

I love my son. He'll be my only. He's amazing but I had to grieve for all my expectations of motherhood and how I saw my future family once I found I was having a son.

suninthefog · 22/10/2022 13:26

Also not that I have to defend myself to you @lunar1 but the reason I even knew that early is due to genetic screening. For a genetic abnormality that only shows in boys, as it's on the X chromosome, but girls with their two XX don't suffer in the same way as one will always be normal. People have all sorts of reasons for feelings.

However I've never once wished my son was a daughter. So that's on my side in comparison to these mothers who are transing their sons.

Clymene · 22/10/2022 13:26

There is another thread on this in AIBU. Worth a read.

TheClogLady · 22/10/2022 13:28

suninthefog · 22/10/2022 13:15

That's not totally fair. I had gender disappointment when I was told I was having a son. I've had very negative experiences with men and male siblings.

It was hard to for me at that point, 12 weeks pregnant separate these complex feelings. Sometimes we as women are told that the only child worth having is a daughter as a son will leave you. I saw that happen over and over in my family over the years. I had internalised this sentiment completely. Having other mothers tell me this isn't ok would have only made me feel worse than I already felt.

I love my son. He'll be my only. He's amazing but I had to grieve for all my expectations of motherhood and how I saw my future family once I found I was having a son.

I think you are both right.

The mother’s feelings are her feelings and they are sincere and deserved to be acknowledged (and may well be rooted in the mother’s own trauma) but no matter how sincere, those feelings can’t be allowed to affect her child’s psychological well-being.

(It doesn’t sound like that’s the case for you, btw, Sun. Personally, I grew up knowing my dad wanted a boy and that I was a disappointment. I even have a feminised version of the boy-name he picked for his non-existent son. It’s definitely been a contributory factor to our difficult father/daughter relationship as he barely concealed his resentment towards me and my elder sister was the golden child)

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 13:33

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/10/2022 12:53

That's grim PurgatoryOfPotholes. It's like reading a personal statement from a 14 year old, not a qualified psychologist working with children with complex mental health issues.

When you've recovered from that, here are their musings about men's and women's spaces, from the festival blog. This was posted under their real name, complete with the title of Dr.

Do they come across as someone who is capable of saying to a distressed teenage female, "I don't think medical transition is the right path for you"? Do they seem capable of separating their own situation from the individual circumstances of children referred to them?

blog

LGBTQ people are born rebels, explorers and pioneers. Coming Out is an act of self-affirmation in defiance of HUGE homophobia in the world, and five decades of law reform and changing attitudes in some places has not changed that. Coming Out is an act of rebellion against the norms of the world that shows the authentic drive within to be Who We Are is stronger than the idiocy and prejudice that exists around homo, bi and trans-sexuality.

For a number of years I have been vocal about my feelings against gender specific spaces. Not spaces such as women only refuges, but single sex workshops or held spaces that are specifically designed to explore, develop or discover one’s masculinity or femininity in an exclusive and essentialist manner. However, more recently I have come to think that it is not so much the spaces specifically that I am against, but the way in which these spaces are set up.
I have attended a variety of sexuality/Tantra festivals over the years, which more often than not have some kind of ‘men only’ and ‘women only’ sessions throughout the programme. I never wished to attend the women’s only sessions, yet I felt ambivalent around my presence in the men only spaces. Even in the more heteronormative workshops there tended to be some controversy and much discussion about these spaces; particularly how men and women were defined. Were the spaces
about exploring sex, bodies, gender, identity, stereotypes, expression or something else? If the purpose was to explore identity, and not sex, then could a woman who wished to explore her masculinity attend the man’s space? The answer was always no. These were spaces created by excluding others, by those in power deciding if a person was allowed to attend, telling people they were not welcome based on criteria that has been set by a culture of oppression.

As the women connected with mother earth and the men growled and stamped around the room, those of us ‘gender rejects’ sat in the smoking cabin and criticised the way the spaces had been set up. At the same time part of me wanted to be ‘one of the boys’ and be allowed into the club of masculinity. I wanted that part of me to be validated by the process of simply being allowed into the room. Yet at the same time I did not want to be part of a club that excluded people like me.
As testosterone has now taken hold of my body my membership of this club is often assumed. I am positioned as a man by most new people I meet and thus given membership through their perception. I therefore no longer have to ask ‘are trans guys allowed in this space?’ but simply turn up. Yet I still feel ambivalent about my presence in men only spaces and the aspects of my old self, and my politics, that I may be betraying if I enter.

During the summer I attended the Queer Spirit festival, a festival for queer people to celebrate sexuality, spiritually, ritual and communities. When reading the program, I noticed that there was a session for ‘masculine identified people’. This was in stark contrast to the spaces I had come into contact with before. An ‘opt in’ space, where the individual can decide for themselves whether they wish to be part of such a space rather than the larger group excluding those who they feel do not meet some culturally oppressive criteria.

I felt myself being drawn to the session, despite the blurb about it being rather vague and I couldn’t really tell what it was about. My next question to myself was as to whether I was really ‘man enough’ to attend. I do not think of myself as a man, though I often enjoy being called a boy. I strongly connect with the term genderqueer and on occasions I will refer to myself as trans masculine, thus I decided that I was indeed ‘man enough’, or possibly ‘masculine enough’ to attend.
I entered the session and quietly sat down. Just before the session began two younger faces peeked around the door, “Can we come in?” one asked in a soft unbroken voice.
A variety of versions of “If you identify as a man you are welcome here” answered back. “We are both trans guys” the unbroken voice replied. “Then yes, come on in”. The two young men entered the space and joined the circle.
It turned out that the session involved a variety of exercises looking at touch and consent, some similar to ones that I had done before. [bold mine]

Out of a total of 18 participants, four of us were trans which seemed to make no difference to any of the cis men there. The workshop ended with a discussion about how the group had found the session. As the young man with the unbroken voice said how important it had been for him to be welcomed into such a space I felt tears well up in my eyes. Now several years into my physical transition I can look back and remember how important it was for me to find role models, both cis and trans men, who connected with a kind of masculinity that I found myself drawn to, yet opportunities of this kind had felt few and far between. In hearing how important the spacehad been for that young man I felt proud that I had been there with him. I felt grateful to the other men who had also been there, who had made the session a welcoming space for all of us to be in together.

As I reflect on my position about gender specific spaces I believe that it has changed over time. It is not so much the existence of them that I stand against, but rather how they are set up and who gets to dictate group membership. Who gets to decide who belongs and who doesn’t? Who performs their gender ‘well enough’ to be granted permission to enter? Who defines how these ideas of gender are constructed? It is the power in this exclusivity that I stand against; a power that exists in day to day culture which is harmful and oppressive to all of us, irrespective of our gender. Instead, I stand for spaces that are ‘opt in’, where power is placed in the individual and one gets to decide for themselves whether they belong, or even if they wish to belong at all. Spaces that are set up to be welcoming and supportive, inclusive and based on self-defined and self-constructed identities. Spaces that have the power to be healing, affirming and nurturing. Those are spaces of which I am proud to belong.

Clymene · 22/10/2022 13:41

Christ @PurgatoryOfPotholes thar person belongs nowhere near gender questioning children. I know someone who is a massive TRA who is a school teacher. I really don't think she should be because I know for a fact she doesn't keep her ideology out of the classroom.

suninthefog · 22/10/2022 13:49

Thanks @TheClogLady for acknowledging my feelings. I'm sorry you had to grow up that way. That's truly a horrible thing to put on a child.

Now he's here I feel no disappointment in having a son, except the ocasional pang when I read the MIL and DIL threads.

TheBiologyStupid · 22/10/2022 14:47

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/10/2022 12:53

That's grim PurgatoryOfPotholes. It's like reading a personal statement from a 14 year old, not a qualified psychologist working with children with complex mental health issues.

Absolutely - very alarming.

Datun · 22/10/2022 15:05

TheClogLady · 22/10/2022 13:05

Clarification, the mother wants puberty blockers prescribed despite the child showing no signs of bodily distress.

I remember seeing some messages maybe from Reddit or possibly Facebook, where a woman's son actively didn't want to take cross sex hormones anymore.

He was finding it interfered with his wanking, apparently. His erections were, er, unreliable. And she was fuming with him, trying to push them on him.

This whole ideology is such a massive shit show.

Datun · 22/10/2022 15:08

TheBiologyStupid · 22/10/2022 14:47

Absolutely - very alarming.

Is this a person who has themselves had their puberty blocked? Because they sound like a child.

And that's another thing. Individuals who have never been through puberty, but have aged chronologically and qualified in certain subjects.

Are we looking at a bunch of people who are qualified, but with the brain and maturity of a 12 year old. Or even younger.

Fucking hell. The equivalent of a nine-year-old psychologist.

VestofAbsurdity · 22/10/2022 15:39

There's no two ways about it this shit show has to result in criminal culpability and punishment for all those involved, it is the only way to prevent it happening again.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 15:40

I suppose it depends how long this
has been going on for. I would have assumed the timeframe was too early, but I may not have accurate information.

The good doctor is in their late 30s. Older than me, and they may even be older than the official voices of da yoof, Owen Jones and Jameela Jamil! Were female children being put on blockers for gender-related distress at that point?

ResisterRex · 22/10/2022 15:48

Clymene · 22/10/2022 13:26

There is another thread on this in AIBU. Worth a read.

Oh wow. Just found it. It's got a lot of traffic!

OP posts:
TheBiologyStupid · 22/10/2022 15:56

Transgender Trend has an interview with Dr Hakeem who was quoted in The Daily Mail's article: www.transgendertrend.com/interview-az-hakeem/