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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Please update your email signature to include your pronouns

194 replies

Rosecottage888 · 22/10/2022 00:34

The email states (at the bottom) that this is optional.

I knew it was coming, saw other threads from people who's organisations asked the same. I won't do it, just wanted a moan here.

OP posts:
SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 17:52

Dragonskin · 22/10/2022 08:25

How would you tell their pronoun. complies with their sex just from their email address or first name? My name can be used by either sex. How can you tell?

Mainly because colleagues are not faceless names on an email list, but real people you meet in real life. Plus we have photos on our email address list if you haven't met them

Lucky you, I've worked from home for over two years I haven't met half the colleagues I deal with every day and the rest I haven't seen since before COVID, and most people don't have pictures on their email. I certainly wouldn't be able to tell if someone's sex matched their pronouns, or what sex they were from a uni-sex name.

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 17:53

coronafiona · 22/10/2022 17:49

Lord/master ?

I like this one!

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 17:57

DontCallMeBaby · 22/10/2022 09:08

We have quite a lot of pronouns going on (including in a lovely educational piece from a chap who claimed he could call everyone in the room ‘they/them’ without causing offence; still fuming about that*). No hint of them being mandated yet. If it ever happens or if I’m even asked why I don’t have them, I have a variety of arguments lined up:

  • The ‘people on a gender journey’ argument as above, backed up with yogyakartaprinciples.org/principle-6/ “The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s sexual orientation or gender identity”. I’m not keen on this one tbh but I think it’s the most likely to work on those who are really committed to this stuff.
  • Stereotype threat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat DH works for the same organisation and likes this one a lot - it’s a male-dominated, technical organisation but he works for a high-achieving female engineer.
  • ”I don’t have a gender identity, therefore if you ask me to put my pronouns in my sig block you’re asking me to declare my sex. Does that sound appropriate to you? Are there any other protected characteristics you’d like me to declare every time I email anyone?”
  • Calling everyone they/them is apparently fine, unless they’re clearly presenting as the opposite sex, in which case it’s offensive. So you can call me they/them even though I’m clearly female and you’re just being silly, but if my boss turns up in a dress we’d have to call him she/her (although he, sadly, does have pronouns in his sig block, so it’d actually be very confusing).

These are all good arguments to use if you don't want to add your pronouns to your signature block, on the off chance people are put under pressure to do so.^^ Saying that, it's not really an argument against individuals making their own choice to do so. The only one I've seen is woman saying they 'lose respect' for other women, doesn't seem like a feminist argument to be honest.

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 17:58

SheWoreYellow · 22/10/2022 10:32

I work with someone in a different agency who has ‘any’. I quite like that.

Do you like it because they are embracing all genders? Because that what that usually means.

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 18:00

MintJulia · 22/10/2022 07:41

My last organisation tried this.

When pushed, I replied that a) my sexuality was none of the company's concern and b) since I don't take offence at whatever pronoun is used (or not), there was no reason for me to be specific.

I suggested it was intruding on my legal right to a private life.

That was the end of the conversation.

Your organisation asked you to openly declare your sexuality? I'm not surprised they backed off.

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 18:05

ChlorineChris · 22/10/2022 07:14

I feel a little pop of disappointment when I see they've been added to someone's footer, especially when it's a woman I previously respected. I feel a sense of relief when a meeting that has gone well is followed up with an email, and there is no dreaded brackets after their name...

When I get a few in a row displaying them I feel marginalised and vulnerable. I recognise inducing those feelings in me, as a GC feminist, is very much unimportant though as my right to feel I work in an environment that includes me is of no interest....

Why do you feel marginalised by other people's genders? Do you feel equally affected by other things that other people believe in and you don't? Is it particularly sensitive for you? Genuine question.

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 18:09

PeloFondo · 22/10/2022 01:57

@SeemsABitHarsh I have to ask this at work, so I ask for title rather than miss/Mrs etc
You can pick what you want from Dr to Lady to Princess but it won't let me process any further without a title annoyingly! But if it's in the list of titles we have, you can pick whatever you want

Brill, it's certainly better to ask if it's something you have to enter. Next time some patronising man tries to pull a 'Miss or Mrs?' Question at me I'll just say 'Duchess' 👸

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 18:12

TitsInAbsentia · 22/10/2022 02:04

Needless, virtue signalling bullcrap. It's everywhere. For example today I completed a Transport for London consultation on local cycle lanes. It needed me to register and within that:

"We would like to ask you eight optional questions. We ask these questions to help us assess whether:
• our Have your say activity reaches all sections of the community
• to understand possible differences in views between sections of the community (for example to consider if the level of support for a scheme varies between age groups) and
• to improve the effectiveness of the way we communicate with all our customers"

It asked for gender, ethnic group, religious beliefs and sexual orientation. I don't see how knowing if I'm a Bhuddist or a Martha wanting to be Arthur would be useful alongside whether or not I'm happy with the traffic a cycle lane causes or improve the effectiveness of how it communicates with me.

It clearly explains why they want to make sure they reach all sections of the community, what bit don't you understand?

BookwormBadger · 22/10/2022 18:28

We've basically been forced to do this at work, despite some pretence that it was optional. I'm so mad about about it.

Our MD, and our President, have been fully brainwashed by our HR leaders who have put DEI at the top of the company agenda for the last 4 or 5 years.

Our MD in particular is a Guardian addict and ties himself up in knots worrying that he's not being an apologetic ally all the time.

I'm in a leadership role and there is just no way I could get away with not doing it - I would have been the only one in 2000 people and I absolutely believe it would have ruined any promotion prospects I may have in the future.

I hate that outside people will see my signature and think I believe in it, but there is nothing I can feasibly do.

MavisChunch29 · 22/10/2022 18:34

Brill, it's certainly better to ask if it's something you have to enter. Next time some patronising man tries to pull a 'Miss or Mrs?' Question at me I'll just say 'Duchess' 👸

I always put Lady Mavis on the train wifi. It amuses me.

Ofcourseshecan · 22/10/2022 18:39

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 17:41

Those aren't pronouns or funny. What's the purpose?

Show quote history

Do you think made-up words like 'ze' and 'hir' are pronouns? Because if you don't I'm afraid you're transphobic. And if you do ... well, I leave that up to you.

For anyone else, here's a little bit of joy I discovered while looking that up:
www.health.nd.gov/sites/www/files/documents/Files/HSC/HEO/Pronouns.pdf
Practicing a person’s pronouns out loud in a private setting is a helpful strategy for changing the language you use. If you need to practice pronouns with a safe person, you’re welcome to reach out to the Health Equity staff as a resource. This can be helpful especially when needing to utilize the they or ze pronouns...

OK everyone, let's hear you practising those pronouns!

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 19:11

@Ofcourseshecan all words were made up once Confused new words are made up every day. For information, sometimes those words you mentioned are referred to as neo pronouns. I've never come across any one who uses them in real life.

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 19:12

MavisChunch29 · 22/10/2022 18:34

Brill, it's certainly better to ask if it's something you have to enter. Next time some patronising man tries to pull a 'Miss or Mrs?' Question at me I'll just say 'Duchess' 👸

I always put Lady Mavis on the train wifi. It amuses me.

😂

BrokenFridgeDrawer · 22/10/2022 19:19

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 17:41

Those aren't pronouns or funny. What's the purpose?

Show quote history

The purpose is this.

Nobody I work with would recoginse any of those names or their significance.

The people I work with in the vast majority think that a " Trans " person is somebody who has gone through surgery.

Some of them think Trans is something to do with " queers " and not in the latest understanding of the word.

The general public are ignorant.

it took me several years of of being totally puzzled by the no platforming and banning of well respected feminists to actually start to try and understand what was going on ...

This would be an opportunity to piquue and peak.

Somebody else said adding something ridiculous would be confrontational ?

Are;t the Non Binaries with their no sex pronouns and the cross dressers already doing that .... ?

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 19:31

So you feel the people at your work and the general public need to be better educated about what trans means? Nothing wrong with that.
Who are non-binary people and cross-dressers being confrontational to? Don't GC women often say things like 'they can wear what they want, say they are who they want, but they'll never be insert sex here'. Seems like they can't actually say or wear what they want because that's confrontational.

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 22/10/2022 19:34

@SeemsABitHarsh I can't speak for others so will just speak for why I don't like the idea of pronouns in emails.

  1. women get slower and more unhelpful responses to emails already, this has been evidenced by experiments where men and women have swapped email accounts. Highlighting our sex is detrimental to women in written form. This is also why so many female authors use pen names
  2. if someone does not want to announce their trans status they are being given the choice of lying on every email and compounding their feelings of being hidden or outing themselves when they are not ready
  3. it forces me to subscribe to an ideology I don't believe in
BrokenFridgeDrawer · 22/10/2022 19:53

They are plenty of " passive aggressive " people in every community. Those that parade through their neigbors streets with flutes / fly a St Georges Flag / wear a niqab / demand their religion is accomodated / play loud music / wear a T Shirt that says fcuk The Queen / and many other things, not always innocently, but knowingly or hopingly that they will get a reaction whilst claiming they only wanting to express an opinion / fly a flag / show allegiance to an ideology / want to pee in the toilet they feel most comfortable / have their genitals waxed / get an illiicit sexual or physcological thrill. Who, little old me, but I was " only "...

I think it is absoutely clear you know what passive agressive behavior is.

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 19:55

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 22/10/2022 19:34

@SeemsABitHarsh I can't speak for others so will just speak for why I don't like the idea of pronouns in emails.

  1. women get slower and more unhelpful responses to emails already, this has been evidenced by experiments where men and women have swapped email accounts. Highlighting our sex is detrimental to women in written form. This is also why so many female authors use pen names
  2. if someone does not want to announce their trans status they are being given the choice of lying on every email and compounding their feelings of being hidden or outing themselves when they are not ready
  3. it forces me to subscribe to an ideology I don't believe in

Yes I can see your point of view if it's forced for you or anyone else, but it doesn't really track if you're talking about people doing it voluntarily, as it's their own business and doesn't affect anyone else.

SeemsABitHarsh · 22/10/2022 19:59

BrokenFridgeDrawer · 22/10/2022 19:53

They are plenty of " passive aggressive " people in every community. Those that parade through their neigbors streets with flutes / fly a St Georges Flag / wear a niqab / demand their religion is accomodated / play loud music / wear a T Shirt that says fcuk The Queen / and many other things, not always innocently, but knowingly or hopingly that they will get a reaction whilst claiming they only wanting to express an opinion / fly a flag / show allegiance to an ideology / want to pee in the toilet they feel most comfortable / have their genitals waxed / get an illiicit sexual or physcological thrill. Who, little old me, but I was " only "...

I think it is absoutely clear you know what passive agressive behavior is.

Indeed, if they're behaving in a certain negative way to get a reaction then yeah obviously. I don't think everything on your list falls into that category. The comment didn't mention anything like that it simply said being non-binary or cross-dressing.

PeloFondo · 22/10/2022 20:42

@SeemsABitHarsh you can have that, it's in my annoying list!
I ask for title but some people don't hear/get it so I end up listing options Grin "ms? Miss? Lady? Doctor? Princess?"

passport123 · 22/10/2022 20:44

te/rf

no, I wouldn't have the balls to do this in real life either!

BrokenFridgeDrawer · 22/10/2022 20:55

ReunitedThorns · 22/10/2022 17:35

Just refuse to do it, the silence will be deafening.

Putting in silly suggestions will only lead to confrontation.

No, silence is what is getting us here.

People need to speak up and show other views and opinions.

Otherwise it will be acceptance by aqquiessence.

It needs to be confronted.

Becuase after the pronouns, what is next, the toilets, the gym showers ?

Its very much a a "First they came for the Jews " moment

BrokenFridgeDrawer · 22/10/2022 21:00

I apologise.

I got the quote completly wrong.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

But the point stands.

Beee Kind is being taken advantage of by the wolves in sheeps clothing of this ideology .... Billionaire AGPs seeking sympathy for trans feotuses

Aqqiesse to the pronouns now, share your toilet later

StrangeLookingParasite · 22/10/2022 21:45

Nope/nope/nope