More empathy for 'transmen' than 'transwomen'?

[Yaissa]

I can't think of anywhere else I could muse this over.

I am staunchly GC.

I believe in bio sex, not gender.

I've known several TW over the years and they pushed me over the edge, so to speak, into GC territory (I used to be a trans ally until I observed their behaviour first hand)

So my daughter has a new friend. She talks about him all the time. Not met him. Another mum today told me he is trans (bio female)

I immediately felt a mix of emotions from concern (my daughter was influenced heavily a few years ago by a Non binary teacher and questioned her gender, thankfully it was a phase) and then relief that this 'boy' who is older than her and talked about so much is actually just a girl.

I started to think about how my daughter felt when she got dragged into that was of feeling. She's autistic, feels out of place, uncomfortable in her body, going through puberty, unwanted attention from men... She wanted to escape the burden of womanhood.

I immediately felt sympathy for her new friend. And it made me think, how would I feel if her new friend was a transgirl (bio male). I'd be angry that this young boy was trying to infiltrate my daughters spaces.

Then I realised why. Because a transgirl isn't a girl and a trans boy is still a girl.

My sympathies lie with bio females, full stop.

It seems like young girls wnat to be trans because they want to escape the awful realities of being a girl.

And men want to be trans to fulfil the fantasies they have around womanhood.

I think many of us feel this way as we have experienced so many of the driving forces behind what drives the majority of females to transition.

I would say that the very few young boys who've wanted to be a girl have been driven to it through a basic desire to play, wear and do the things/ colours not stereotypically associated with boys. They learnt that it was possible to "change sex" rather than those around them just saying yes, you can, and be a boy. It's socially much less acceptable though for boys to do this in the way it is for young girls (eg wear skirts to school. Girls can easily wear trousers.)

As they get older, yes it's more likely to be fantasy related.

I’ve wondered for some time if they are trying to hide from male advances.
I remember walking past a group of men, hoping they wouldn’t whistle or shout, being nervous.

Yes. I see that too. Its the case with a FOTF, young boy (mid teens) been very effeminate since childhood and is now trans. Maybe it feels easier for him to be trans than gay.

As a child I was introverted, a tomboy, questioning my sexuality, scared of men/boys, in an abusive situation at home, looking for a place in the world... I really think I would have been sucked into the trans thing if I was a teen today.

I don't think it's empathy.
It just comes across as patronising and infantalising as hell, which is the way it always comes across when trans men are spoken about on here /in "GC" terms .
Painting them as a victim, wanting to opt out of womanhood etc - that's just coming across as putting your issues ( general you) on them when you have no idea what it's like to be trans
Neither do I as I'm not, but I can see outside of me and know not everyone is the same.
I was a tomboy when growing up too, absolutely hated anything "girly" but knew I always was one.
So being trans clearly isn't the same and there's more to it.

I agree. It is patronising and infantilising and very much putting posters general issues about what they dislike about being women.

I'm not big on sisterhood but I don't feel particularly empathetic to women who decide they aren't women. Fine- up to them but they aren't my concern.

I heard another potential stimulus recently. It is the argument that masculinity is described as toxic so often, that sensitive boys (and there are many) not wanting to become part of that ilk, instead choose to identify with the oppressed rather than become the oppressor. It made sense to me. When talking about sensitive males. It points again to the completely irresponsible lack of guideance by schools and educators. In short, the stereotypes are doing the educating.

Absolutely this and I'm glad someone else said it.

The GC view of trans men is infantiling and patronising and more than a little sexist - a feminist movement absolutely convinced that female-born people don't know their own minds and bodies and are in need of protection from their own choices, are fragile, easily manipulated, vulnerable to outside influence, and should be denied bodily autonomy in case they make a decision we don't like.

The worst thing you can do in this debate is to treat it as black and white.

This whole debate is focused around wordings and definitions and the seeking of loopholes. This way of thinking makes a lot of sense when you realise the high amounts of autistic individuals involved.

There are some trans men who are heterosexual girls who want to escape from a female future, there are some trans men who are lesbians being persuaded that they are trans, there are trans women who are homosexual men being persuaded to be trans, there are trans woman who are men with a fetish (some know it is, others don't) and there are some trans women who aren't trans but abuse self-ID for various purposes.

I do have more empathy with trans men on one level, in that I share femaleness with them, and the structural and personal disadvantages of being female. When a female transitions, she keeps her lack of power, on the whole, just as a male keeps his power relative to females. So transitioning cannot usually help a female gain an advantage in sport, in the workplace etc and is unlikely to be done to enable sex crimes as they are rare in females. Therefore I think female transitioners are more likely to have genuine, sincerely felt motives. In fact I think we can clearly decide that from statistics alone. Women are not transitioning en masse immediately after being charged with crimes.

however I also feel annoyance with them (and more particularly women who identify as non-binary) for thinking they can abandon their sex and pretend they’re not female like me. They’ll always have my solidarity as a female, but I won’t have theirs as they’ve decided they’re not. Of course they don’t owe me anything but it’s frustrating. Because the reality is their femaleness with continue to disadvantage them.

lastly I am not wary of a female and I am wary of males, especially males who want into women’s spaces and think they can appropriate my sexed reality - for good, well-documented, factual reasons, not prejudice. So yes of course I feel warmer towards a TM than a TW.

you have no idea what it's like to be trans

Sweeping statement. What makes you so sure?

In the 60s/70s/80s a tomboy was accepted as a tomboy, a geek was accepted as a geek, a socially awkward girl was accepted as a socially awkward girl. She might have been teased or told off for it, but nobody ever told her she was actually a boy and that if she bound her breasts/took cross-sex hormones/had surgery then all her problems would go away. So we grew up, adopted or rejected feminine stereotypes, became engineers/camera operators/soldiers/plumbers/whatever, were diagnosed with ASD as adults.

But if we were children today...

No, ScaryFaces, adult women can do what they like to their bodies, can make their own choices and accept the consequences.

Children need to be protected. Vulnerable people need to be protected.

Do you think safeguarding is patronising?

Where did scaryfaces mention children?!
They were talking about trans men, who are usually patronised and infantalised.
Nobody even mentioned children so don't know why you're suddenly trying to change the subject to safeguarding children
We're talking about trans men.

Excellent point.

I probably know exactly what it feels like to be a child thinking their trans as I rejected my femininity as a young girl due to abuse and fear of men. I was a tomboy and a 'dyke' (according to school bullies) today I would probably be NB or trans. So yea.

I heard another potential stimulus recently. It is the argument that masculinity is described as toxic so often, that sensitive boys (and there are many) not wanting to become part of that ilk, instead choose to identify with the oppressed rather than become the oppressor. It made sense to me. When talking about sensitive males. It points again to the completely irresponsible lack of guideance by schools and educators. In short, the stereotypes are doing the educating.

I agree with this. Obviously homophobia has a part to play.

There's also a couple of young female detransitioners who've described getting lost in manga gay porn being the trigger to want to be male.

Was it Dr Em who wrote a piece evaluating porn hub porn; gay sex was more loving, including kissing, and all the hetero categories were incredibly dehumanising for the women, violent, abusive and anal.

It's not binary or straightforward. But the majority seems to be as the OP described.

The OP is talking about her daughter's friend. From the context both the dd and her friend appear to be still at school - ie children. Most of us are mothers with children, many of whom are girls struggling with the influence of the trans ideology. Many of our dc have friends who identify as trans. Look at the referrals to GIDS: overwhelmingly female children.

As a general rule it’s easier to empathise with people like ourselves. Many women see themselves in the young trans men taking hormones, getting mastectomies, hating their bodies. We know what it’s like to hate our bodies and we know the influence society plays in us feeling like that.

It’s not patronising or pitying. For some trans men it may seem like women projecting their own experiences onto them and they don’t feel or recognise the experiences of these women.

But tell me then why so many girls and young women are identifying as trans? A 4000% increase in referrals.

Don’t forget many of us here have children identifying as trans or work with or care for children who do. We’re seeing what’s happening in real time, with our own eyes.

So true faffertea. So many of us could have been pushed or tempted down this route if we were young now. I know what it’s like to not fit in as a girl/woman, to wish I was a boy and to hate my body when going through puberty - so many of us do especially the tomboys, feminists and lesbians. But we had reality on our side - I learned to be my own kind of woman because I knew I wasn’t a boy and so had to accept that. Girls and young women have been let down by lies and ideology that are ending up with a lot of them devastated and regretful, we know this. It’s not patronising to be upset to see that happening to the next generation of women like us.

Neither do I as I'm not, but I can see outside of me and know not everyone is the same.I was a tomboy when growing up too, absolutely hated anything "girly" but knew I always was one.So being trans clearly isn't the same and there's more to it.

"I can see outside of me and know not everyone is the same"... and then generalising the experiences of all GNC girls from your personal narrative, how ridiculously ironic! That's very nice that you always knew you were a girl, but you shouldn't project on to others. Plenty of women who were GNC are fully aware they would have been caught up in the trans wave if they'd been exposed to the kind of propaganda young girls are exposed to now, and they're glad they escaped.

The transmen i know personally are all still teenagers. I knew them as young girls.

The transwomen and nonbinary people i know are adults of 30-50.

Yes I feel more concern for the transmen. The ones I know have been bullied and excluded by girls at school. One has just been diagnosed autistic, two have 'perfect' older sisters.

There are definitely issues in female culture for teenagers. Transitioning offers a (genuine) coping strategy away from that.

So being trans clearly isn't the same and there's more to it.

Except so many detransitioners now say "I wasn't a boy, I just didn't want to be a girl/" "I am a woman, I just felt like I wasn't good enough/hated my body/didn't realise I could be a woman in my own way." I have seen detransitioners say that when they discovered feminist viewpoints that explained you didn't have to be feminine and "girly" to be a woman, they realised they could reconcile to being a woman after all - it was the relentless stereotypes and expectations that made them feel they weren't a girl, along with being told that "identifying" as a man and "changing sex" via hormones and surgery is an option. But these things will never actually make your sex change. I'm sorry for trans men - and we are now seeing more and more of them - who are waking up to the fact that they are not and never will be men, and they've harmed their bodies into the bargain. And I suspect that there are also others who feel similar but don't dare to admit it because there's so much hate and ostracism for those who do detransition.

I think the best we can say is that for some people, transitioning - imperfect and incomplete as it is - is their best option but we know that for swathes of people it is not. So how can you know that "being trans" is some other category when it so often turns out to be those same girls and women, who later realise they just didn't fit in and were actually just gay, tomboys, etc?

yup I agree - I once described to to a transman friend as like : do I think you're damaged, sure. I am too. I recognise and empathise with your wounds because I recognise that you've been hurt by the same sticks that were used to beat me.

@WarriorN "There's also a couple of young female detransitioners who've described getting lost in manga gay porn being the trigger to want to be male."

I think that may be the route for many, especially through fandom and fanfiction, and would like to see it analysed more.