More empathy for 'transmen' than 'transwomen'?

[Yaissa]

I can't think of anywhere else I could muse this over.

I am staunchly GC.

I believe in bio sex, not gender.

I've known several TW over the years and they pushed me over the edge, so to speak, into GC territory (I used to be a trans ally until I observed their behaviour first hand)

So my daughter has a new friend. She talks about him all the time. Not met him. Another mum today told me he is trans (bio female)

I immediately felt a mix of emotions from concern (my daughter was influenced heavily a few years ago by a Non binary teacher and questioned her gender, thankfully it was a phase) and then relief that this 'boy' who is older than her and talked about so much is actually just a girl.

I started to think about how my daughter felt when she got dragged into that was of feeling. She's autistic, feels out of place, uncomfortable in her body, going through puberty, unwanted attention from men... She wanted to escape the burden of womanhood.

I immediately felt sympathy for her new friend. And it made me think, how would I feel if her new friend was a transgirl (bio male). I'd be angry that this young boy was trying to infiltrate my daughters spaces.

Then I realised why. Because a transgirl isn't a girl and a trans boy is still a girl.

My sympathies lie with bio females, full stop.

It seems like young girls wnat to be trans because they want to escape the awful realities of being a girl.

And men want to be trans to fulfil the fantasies they have around womanhood.

I feel empathy for any reasonable (ie not aggressive, etc) trans person. I don’t feel especially different about trans men. In fact, I suppose I sometimes feel irked, depending on the person, eg some of the more famous trans men really wind me up because they’re crapping on their fellow females and often seem motivated by a kind of internal misogyny.

The younger trans men in their teens and early 20s just make me sad. I was served by one in a cafe the other day. Lovely person, but……not sure how to phrase this…..they didn’t seem to be any different from any other female person of the same age, except their name badge proclaiming their male name and pronouns. I found it very sad, and wished I could tell them they could be/do all they wanted to be without ‘changing sex’. I’d bet money on the fact they were same-sex attracted, and I wanted to reassure them it was ok, and that the feelings they had were normal and would pass. I did wonder whether they were questioning their ‘transness’ too as the chat we had was very much ‘girly’.

So, why are so many girls feeling like this? Almost like it’s shameful and inferior to be a girl.

I also think it’s natural for older women to feel protective towards girls and young women, as well as sometimes frustrated about things like liberal feminist ideas and internalised misogyny, even though most of us have been there. Not so much towards older, fetishist or at the very least misogynist men, who think a few sexist stereotypes make them women.

the only older (40s) trans man I know has a catalogue of MH issues and long history of abuse and has always coped by seeking new identities and diagnoses. It is clear to me why this opportunity for another new identity appealed. As an adult I accept it’s their choice but I do worry about the way it sets up a support group and endless praise that will be whisked away if you change your mind, so you get “locked in”. So I am worried that despite being older, they could go through surgery and hormone changes and then regret them.

I feel that way too. But it's not illogical. There isn't that autogynophelia element to it. It's not tried on and taken off. They weren't raised with the expectation that women bend with the wind to accommodate them.

It does seem like a different thing.

For me the dividing line around empathy and concern is age and not sex.

I'm empathetic and concerned about all children male or female struggling with identity and being sold a lie that there's a simple solution, they can change sex, and the world will play along with this illusion.

It's cruelty to already vulnerable children.
Girls and boys differ in why they may get drawn into this lie but I empathise with them all because they're children.

Adults who choose this, male or female are of no concern to me in terms of requiring my empathy. I just want to ensure we can continue to identify who is male and protect females.

I'm finding the use of transmen on here to refer to children very jarring. We need to be clear in our language when we are discussing children vs adults.

I am going to generalise massively here and there are, of course, outliers for every category but my perception is as follows:

The majority of transmen are adolescent/young girls who either feel uncomfortable with their chanting body or don't favour typically 'feminine' traits or interests and so assume they're actually boys. Some are gay some aren't. Many will 'detransition' in adulthood (whether or not they have had meds or surgery.

The majority of young transwomen are gay but for whatever reason feel uncomfortable with their sexuality/coming out and so the notion of gender dysphoria is more attractive. They prefer female company and traditional female interests but are probably more likely sexually attracted to males.

With adolescent trans people it feels entirely about identity and not feeling like they fit in anywhere. The process of transitioning is about making them feel their authentic selves. I'm afraid that I find a lot of older transitioners (overwhelmingly male) to be sexually motivated. A kink rather than a true sense of identity. Again it's a generalisation but it's the strong sense I get.

I agree I also have sympathy for boys and young men who have been drawn into this at a young age for similar reasons - discomfort with their changing body and/or being gay or autistic for example.

I fully agree with you OP. There have been studies (I forget which 🤦‍♀️!) that reveal that a lot of men’s transition is based on fetishising women (AGP) etc and women to men is because they are trying to escape the heavy societal pressures of being a woman. I can’t remember where I read it (might have been Graham Linehan) but the writer was reviewing extracts of trans memoirs and noticed that a lot of MTF mentioned their excitement at dressing like a woman and FTM described how they hated their body etc. I just find it deeply depressing when I see so many girls wanting to identify out of their sex. Hadley Freeman is writing a book on it (published next summer) about trans being the new anorexia for teen girls. (Sorry for the ramble!)

You talk about having sympathy or not having sympathy and I can't know your mind; but I think threat would be a commonplace reason for your reaction. A girl who identifies as a man is a whole lot less likely to be a sexual threat to your daughter than a boy who identifies as a girl. Especially as an older one as you say is the case here hanging out with a younger (presumably teenage) girl.

And I don't think viewing it in terms of threat is worse than simply not feeling a need to include in your sympathies. I actually think it's better. There are lots of "transgirls" who aren't being malicious they've simply been presented an option they are told explains their difficulties / will make life suddenly better. But the fact is that doesn't change male sex drive or sex-based characteristics. The only point I'd disagree with NashvilleQueen's excellent post on is about the majority of transgirls being gay. It's common in young girls who identify as trans but it's not the impression I have had and even if it is over 50%, there's a very non-significant percentage that are straight. An adolescent boy is a loaded gun (source: was one). Combine that with a socially opened railroad right through traditional protections on an over-intruding boy via being trans and I'd say your reaction is justified purely on those grounds. It doesn't need to be about loyalty or who qualifies for sympathy or not.